Friday, November 25, 2005

Internet squatter: J. B. Handley

I hadn't been planning on posting today. Instead I had been intending to devote today solely to finishing up a pesky grant application that's nearing completion but needs a lot of polishing. Unfortunately, something came up. I tell ya, I sleep in a bit on a day off before taking on the task of trying to finish a grant, wake up to check my e-mail, and what do I find?

A reader (whom I wish to thank publicly and profusely) tipping me off to a dirty trick, that's what. This reader, apparently, mistakenly typed "www.oracknows.com" into her browser and found herself redirected to the Generation Rescue website, you remember, the site that states:
Generation Rescue believes that childhood neurological disorders such as autism, Asperger's, ADHD/ADD, speech delay, sensory integration disorder, and many other developmental delays are all misdiagnoses for mercury poisoning.

I was actually somewhat surprised to learn of this little bit of tricky cybersquatting, mainly because less than a month ago I had stated in a post that I was thinking of moving over to a new blogging platform and hoped to do so before my first blogiversary. Around that same time, I had checked to see if the domain name oracknows.com was available (knowing that my blog had been around long enough and had become prominent enough that it's possible someone else may have gotten there first). Foolishly enough, however, I didn't go ahead and purchase it at the time, indecision being the order of the day (as it has been with regards to my radically redesigning my template or dumping Blogger). In any case, I knew instantly that whoever had pulled this trick must have done so quite recently. A little WHOIS search of the public registry of who owns this domain name was all it took to turn up the person who had registered the oracknows.com domain:
oracknows.com = [ 69.20.5.151 ]

Registrant:
GR
JB Handley
[ADDRESS DELETED by ORAC]
US
Email: jbh@spcap.com

Registrar Name....: REGISTER.COM INC.
Registrar Whois...: whois.register.com
Registrar Homepage: www.register.com
Domain Name: oracknows.com
Created on..............: Thu Nov 03 2005
Expires on..............: Mon Nov 03 2008
Record last updated on..: Thu Nov 03 2005
Administrative Contact:
GR
JB Handley
[ADDRESS DELETED by ORAC]
US
Phone: 1-[PHONE NUMBER DELETED by ORAC]
Email: jbh@spcap.com

Technical Contact:
Registercom
Domain Registrar
575 8th Avenue
New York NY 10018
US
Phone: 1-902-7492701
Email: domainregistrar@register.com

DNS Servers:
ns.rackspace.com
ns2.rackspace.com
Register your domain name at http://www.register.com

Well, well, well. Given where oracknows.com now directs surfers to, this shouldn't come as any surprise, should it? After all, J. B. Handley of Generation Rescue has shown up here before in the comments, as you may recall, rather unhappy with some of my posts.

I couldn't help but note that my post stating that I was thinking of moving to another blogging platform was made on October 28. Then, on November 3, J. B. Handley registered oracknows.com in his name and redirected all traffic to it to his Generation Rescue website. Apparently, J. B. is no longer content just to comment here occasionally when I point out that the evidence does not support his contention that mercury causes autism. Apparently, now he feels the need to trick people looking for my blog. This is particularly odd, given that, in the month or two prior to November 3, I hadn't really written much at all about this topic. Not much was going on, and I had for the the time being moved on to other topics until quite recently.

In any case, the timing seems a little too convenient to be entirely coincidental, doesn't it?

I did a little more digging. Who else, I asked, has irritated J. B. Handley by insisting on sound science and pointing out that clinical and basic scientific data do not support his conspiracy-mongering? Well, there's Autism Diva, of course. So I looked up autismdiva.com. Yep, you guessed it. J. B. Handley bought that domain too:
autismdiva.com = [ 69.20.5.151 ]

Registrant:
GR
JB Handley
[ADDRESS DELETED by ORAC]
US
Email: jbh@spcap.com

Registrar Name....: REGISTER.COM INC.
Registrar Whois...: whois.register.com
Registrar Homepage: www.register.com
Domain Name: autismdiva.com
Created on..............: Tue Nov 01 2005
Expires on..............: Mon Nov 01 2010
Record last updated on..: Thu Nov 03 2005
Administrative Contact:
GR
JB Handley
[ADDRESS DELETED by ORAC]
US
Phone: 1-
[PHONE NUMBER DELETED by ORAC]
Email: jbh@spcap.com

Technical Contact:
Registercom
Domain Registrar
575 8th Avenue
New York NY 10018
US
Phone: 1-902-7492701
Email: domainregistrar@register.com

DNS Servers:
ns.rackspace.com
ns2.rackspace.com
Register your domain name at http://www.register.com

He redirected traffic to autismdiva.com to the Generation Rescue site as well.

Let's see. Is there anyone else? Well, there's SupportVaccination.org (which, unfortunately, seems to be "on permanent hiatus," for reasons that I do not know). Guess what, though? J. B. Handley also bought supportvaccination.com and also redirected traffic to it to his own website.

I wonder what other domain names J. B. Handley has bought up in order to trick unwary surfers by directing them to Generation Rescue? Does anyone know a way to find out?

Tricks like this have traditionally been the province of spammers and Internet squatters, who buy up domain names that they believe a company or (or, relatively frequently, a political candidate) will want and then extort lots of money if that company or candidate wants to buy the domain name from them. Other uses of this tactic have been to set up attack or parody websites of the intended target that visitors end up at by mistake. One further variation is to buy up domain names that you would get with common typos of the target website. Personally, I highly doubt that Mr. Handley is after money from me, Autism Diva, or any other blogger that he doesn't like. More likely, he just wants to direct readers looking for blogs that try to counter his mercury scaremongering to his own website. And, of course, he probably wants to prevent me from using oracknows.com myself if and when I ever finally decide to move my blog to a different platform and/or get my own host (something I may never do, for the simple reason that Blogger, despite its many flaws, remains the best deal in town because it's free). Never mind that the mercury/autism controversy probably makes up way less than 5% of what I write about(if even that). No doubt J. B. had quite the self-satisfied chuckle when he did this and considers himself quite clever, but that Mr. Handley would stoop to such childish pranks for so little potential gain speaks volumes about him

Of course, scummy does not necessarily constitute illegal, and, of course, Mr. Handley did nothing illegal in purchasing these domains. Unfortunately, I probably have no recourse, other than to publicize his trick. I guess I have only myself to blame. I had been thinking of purchasing oracknows.com for several months but never quite got around to it. Consequently, my farting around allowed an Internet vulture like Mr. Handley snatch the domain name up first and use it for his own nefarious purposes. I wonder what some of Handley's admirers would say about his behavior in this.

Probably nothing.

I would, however, point out to Handley's supporters that you do have to wonder about someone who pulls a trick like this. Ask yourself: If Handley is willing to use a little deception in little things like this, doesn't it make you wonder about his behavior in larger things? At the very least, what he has done is petty and childish.

The really funny thing about this is that Handley's little prank was probably totally unnecessary, at least as far as preventing me from using oracknows.com goes. I'm probably going to stick with Blogger for at least a few more months, just with a different, far spiffier, template that I'm (very slowly) working on and hope to unveil by my blogiversary (assuming I can figure out how to work its many bugs out by then). Given that, I guess I can take satisfaction that I caused Mr. Handley to waste a small amount of his money registering that domain name and noting that he'd have to waste quite a bit more to keep me from using the same name with different extensions (.org, .info, .net, etc.). If I either fail to find a more productive hobby or my job fails to be all-consuming and I happen to be still blogging three years from now, it will be satisfying to think that Mr. Handley will have to waste even more money if he still wants to keep that domain name from me.

True, it's not very much in the grand scheme of things, but it does still make me chuckle just a little bit.

ADDENDUM: Sadly, the behavior of at least two commenters has left me little choice but to turn comment moderation on temporarily. More details here. Sorry, everyone. I'll try to turn it off as soon as it's feasible, because I really hate to interrupt the flow of comments due to delays in approving them.

68 example(s) of insolence returned:


At 11/25/2005 11:25 AM, Anonymous Diachrony said...

Your concerned reader/emailer here ...

Oddly enough, it did occur to me several hours after emailing you (when I was no longer near a computer) that it would have been interesting to look up Autism Diva and see if she were also a victim. I suppose I didn't think of it at the time because I've never visited her blog and only know of her through your posts & comments here.

This J.B. Handley is quite the sleazy character.

By the way -- I am a "she." :-)

-- Diachrony

 

At 11/25/2005 11:35 AM, Blogger Kev said...

I really can't understand what JB thinks he's achieved here.

Other than people who know the domains already (and who therefore know that getting a redirect to genrescue.com is wrong), no extra traffic can come from this unless he sets up mirror sites, but then of course he will be duplicating content and stands a good chance of running afoul with Google et al.

So he's spent a few dollars to piss of a few people and get a reputation for attempting to stifle debate and behave dishonestly. To what end JB? This is all a bit petty and childish isn't it?

 

At 11/25/2005 11:45 AM, Blogger Orac said...

Diachrony,

Thanks, and sorry.

It's fixed.

 

At 11/25/2005 12:31 PM, Blogger Parkin said...

don't worry about it lol, Handley's just made himself seem a bit obsessive and sad, with too much time on his hands.

If this is his idea of a good way to spend his money, he really should get out more.

I mean, he could have used that money to save up towards a chelation therapy treatment.

Though given the price of them, he'd have to save up for quite a while:)
Love
Kath

 

At 11/25/2005 1:29 PM, Anonymous Bistroist said...

What a d... - an unpleasant character.

I guess you could contact the WIPO, even though Orac Knows isn't a trademark, they may find in your favour anyway:
The panel decides the case on the base of the criteria, which are cumulative, contained in the UDRP Policy, which also contains practical examples of how a party may prove its compliance with these criteria:
i) whether the domain name is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the complainant has rights;
ii) whether the respondent has any rights or legitimate interests in the domain name (for example, the legitimate offering of goods and services under the same name);
iii) whether the domain name was registered and is being used in bad faith.


I guess ii and iii might apply to your case, but whether or not it would be worth the hassle, well, that's up to you.

Best of luck, in either case.

 

At 11/25/2005 1:56 PM, Anonymous PerdinBirdin said...

Obviously, you've done something to ruffle his feathers, and now he is trying to ruffle yours.

Forget about it.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I think it's pretty funny.

 

At 11/25/2005 2:48 PM, Blogger Alun said...

Me, I would have floated a few more names as possible things to register to see how many he was willing to buy up :)

 

At 11/25/2005 2:52 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

So when a headless android bluders about asking "Where Is Orac?", he'll be misdirected ;-).

But seriously, this Handley fellow seems to be creating a lot of work (and some expense) for himself, trying to impersonate Orac, Autism Diva and probably others, for no great benefit.

It can't be easy, writing an (ongoing?) series of fraudulent articles to discredit arguments he can't refute (and may not understand). There's a lot of fake thinktanks and 'namesake experts' on the web, and in my experience they betray themselves in a few paragraphs.

Maybe a site listing web 'impersonators' would be a good idea.

----- Kapitano -----

 

At 11/25/2005 3:17 PM, Anonymous massmama said...

How long before Handley comes by screeching about how he's going to sic his lawyers on Orac?

 

At 11/25/2005 4:19 PM, Anonymous Kool Moe Dee said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 

At 11/25/2005 4:29 PM, Anonymous Barbara said...

supportvaccination.org had some good info about the aautism/mercury debate. Google has some pages in the cache.
Place site:supportvaccination.org in Google search box to bring them up and click on the "cached" link.

As you know, there are some violital personalities in this debate...domain squatting would be one of the minor effectations of those personalities.
Everyone watch your back.

BTW, I've heard that McCandless is no longer using DMPS protocol because a child had serious kidney damage.

 

At 11/25/2005 4:36 PM, Blogger Orac said...

"Kool Moe Dee":

There will be NO commentary on personal or legal conflicts between people posting here. As Kev did in his post (an issue that I only just became aware of), I will not permit conflicts and/or legal issues between commenters to proliferate here. They are outside the scope of this blog. If you have any questions about my comment policy, go here and here.

If you continue, I will delete your comments again. If you persist even after that, I will temporarily disable anonymous comments and/or turn on comment moderation for as long as is necessary.

I didn't delete your comment without a trace because I wanted my policy to be transparent to all.

 

At 11/25/2005 4:42 PM, Blogger clone3g said...

What a child. Well I guess JB is determined to rescue every child from autism even if it means purchasing domain names of his perceived enemies. Right, that makes sense.

Barbara said: BTW, I've heard that McCandless is no longer using DMPS protocol because a child had serious kidney damage

Well, you know that medicine is trial and error. God gave us two kidneys for a reason. She also discontinued high dose vitamin A therapy after one patient developed Pseudotumor cerebri. She should have stuck to sex therapy

 

At 11/25/2005 4:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's Liz from I Speak of Dreams.

The wikipedia entry on Generation Rescue is here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Rescue

Handley's vita reveals that his educational background is a a dual BA in economics and East Asian studies from Stanford. But he cut his teeth in the "anything goes" era of venture capital. He probably sees nothing wrong in what he has done.

 

At 11/25/2005 5:03 PM, Blogger Autism Diva said...

Autism Diva owns autismdiva.org
and certainly could have purchased autismdiva.com (.net, .info, .tv, .mx, .co.uk, .ca, .cn,...) at the same time, but Autism Diva always thinks of the .com as a "commercial" extension and that it implies that something is being sold there. Autism Diva isn't about money, and doesn't have extra to be throwing around.

Perhaps Autism Diva will contact the international web address whatever folks and bring up the issue of the misrepresentation going on with autismdiva.com Too bad the rest of us don't have the bucks Mr. Handley has to keep hot and cold running lawyers on tap.

 

At 11/25/2005 5:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Damn! www.jbhandley.com is registered too.

 

At 11/25/2005 5:33 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 

At 11/25/2005 5:43 PM, Blogger Orac said...

Sorry to have to delete your comment that, anonymous, given that you were posting in support of me, but I'm just being consistent in not wanting any discussion of legal issues or conflicts between commenters to proliferate.

Oh, and I deleted another anonymous comment by "Kool Moe Dee." One more, and comment moderation gets turned on for the weekend.

 

At 11/25/2005 6:20 PM, Anonymous John Best said...

Hey Orac, what's really deceptive is your colleagues lying to parents about their negligence that harmed children with thimerosal. The scummy part of your profession is that they have the balls to tell parents they can't help their kids with chelation. You and your colleagues have a long way to climb to rise to Legal Profession's scumbag level.

 

At 11/25/2005 7:31 PM, Blogger Barbara said...

John Best told me my brain didn't work right and I should trade it for a turnip. I am not on the autistic spectrum. I am just honourable and objective.
What a great guy he is. What a wonderful warm feeling comes out of Generation Rescue!
Feel the love, everyone, just feel the love!!!

 

At 11/25/2005 7:36 PM, Blogger decrepitoldfool said...

This is why I tell our web design students, "If you even think you might want a domain name, go to godaddy.com (easy to use, good policies, low prices) and buy it right away." For the cost of ten minutes and 6 bucks, you can rest easy.

I call on Handley to do the decent thing and offer the domain oracknows.com to Orac at no profit.

(This is not an ad for GoDaddy, just sharing my experience. There are other good registrars - look for ICANN certification.)

 

At 11/25/2005 8:52 PM, Blogger Kev said...

"You and your colleagues have a long way to climb to rise to Legal Profession's scumbag level."

I eagerly await Wade's thoughts on that little gem.

 

At 11/25/2005 10:16 PM, Blogger Wade Rankin said...

Leave me outta this Kev!!!

 

At 11/26/2005 12:13 AM, Blogger Prometheus said...

Oh, it's always a breath of fresh air when John Best chimes in on a discussion. True to the classic traditions of his profession, he barks the loudest when he has no evidence to support his position.

Now, John might have a "case" if he could just show two things with at least the "preponderance of the evidence":

{1] Thimerosal (or mercury in any form) causes autism (the data so far is tilted heavily against this hypothesis)

and

[2] Chelation is an effective treatment for autism.

Even the people who are prescribing chelation for autism don't have the data to support [2] - if they did, we would have seen it by now.

Lacking any "hard" data, John (and JB) resort to classic tricks from the demagogue's playbook:

[1] Act as though you have already proven your point, even though you haven't.

[2] Use intimidation, harrassment and character assassination to silence your critics.

[3] Repeat the lie often enough and people will believe it.

If John and JB think that their little "theater of the absurd" is helping parents find out about the "benefits" of chelation, they are mistaken. I would imagine that parents investigating the possibility of chelation would be very hesitant to take the advice of people who are as vindictive, petty and abusive as these two "Rescue Angels".


Prometheus

 

At 11/26/2005 12:30 AM, Blogger Bartholomew Cubbins said...

John Best is a Rescue Angel with the full support of JB. So Wade, given your support of Generation Rescue, Best rubs off on you as well. I can't believe he hasn't been canned. Big surprise that an anonymous comment was deleted a bit before Best shows up.

 

At 11/26/2005 12:55 AM, Blogger Bartholomew Cubbins said...

HCN said,
"I also have a feeling that his "emotional quotient" is a bit on the low side."

I've met many maniacs who want to be seen as stoic and distant but are just emotional and fragile little children at heart.

speaking of squatting... I laugh every time I see that.

 

At 11/26/2005 4:44 AM, Blogger Ginger said...

In an attempt to turn this mole hill back into a mole hill, have you thought of just emailing Handley and asking for the domain back?

Apparently when people have confronted him on his behavior, he has apologized before. Why not try that now before declaring him evil?

 

At 11/26/2005 8:47 AM, Blogger Orac said...

I didn't declare him "evil." That's your word. I merely pointed out that willing to use questionable methods.

This sort of trickery deserves to be publicized. If he's done this to me, Autism Diva, and JP, he's almost certainly done it to others whom he doesn't like (at least to the limits of what he is willing to spend to buy these domain names). Just having him return one domain to me won't fix the problem. Unfortunately, I don't know how one can search the Whois database for every domain that a certain person owns.

Finally, I never made a "mountain out of a molehill." JB's supporters did, by some truly reprehensible behavior in the comments of the sort that I have not seen since Usenet, which led to my turning moderation on. I never saw JB's cybersquatting as anything more than a petty trick to annoy me and others.

Indeed, although I was annoyed when I first posted this, now I'm rather amused at how silly JB is.

 

At 11/26/2005 8:47 AM, Anonymous Dave Harmon said...

This sort of thing just demonstrates how deeply Handley's ilk depend on infantile thinking (defenses). He probably imagines that by "stealing your name", he can share in your credibility and popularity.

Anyway, my sympathies to all the victims. This sort of slimeball has been a PITA since even before the Internet as such, and there's not been much help from government. (Not that the current-admin seems to much value truth, integrity, etc. in any case!)

You might have more legal recourse than you seem to think, I suggest actually talking with a lawyer who specializes in Internet issues. If that doesn't pan out, then you might want to just hold a press conference. I bet you, A.Diva, etc, would make a darn sight better impression on the reporters than JPH would!

 

At 11/26/2005 8:56 AM, Blogger Orac said...

Hmmm. If John Best is a Rescue Angel, then no doubt he'll tell JB that the jig is up and he's been discovered. ;-)

 

At 11/26/2005 9:04 AM, Blogger The Probe said...

I just looked at the Internet Archive, http://www.archive.org/ and was truly surprised to see that www.supportvaccination.org is not archived at all. I find that most curious, as the IA archives just about everything.

I use Firefox, and one of the extensions allows for sending the URL of a page to the IA for archiving.

I wonder if the IA removed the pages and, if so, why?

 

At 11/26/2005 9:35 AM, Blogger Orac said...

His main page no longers shows up in the Google cache, either.

 

At 11/26/2005 11:46 AM, Anonymous Macker said...

Sounds like this J.B. Handley guy has some axe to grind with you Orac. Such a sad commentary about how miffed some people can get....

 

At 11/26/2005 11:47 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am pretty sure a web page can contain a request not to be cached or archived.

 

At 11/26/2005 12:26 PM, Anonymous John Best said...

The point regarding thimerosal and chelation has been proven. I don't think JBH has the money to combat all the lies by the drug industry. Prometheus just has to have studies to accept any of this rather than taking the word of parents who've cured their kids. The thing that should be obvious is that those parents have no reason to lie about it. We'll cure our kids and worry about studies later. Maybe the medical profession will tell the truth someday but I'm not waiting for that to happen. I'll cure my kid now.

 

At 11/26/2005 12:30 PM, Blogger Ginger said...

You didn't say evil, I was just using hyperbole to describe the roasting that was going on here.

And of course this kind of trickery deserves to be publicized. As I have made the case on my site, JB is going to have to answer for this methods. You will go no arguement from me there.

And I don't think you made the mountian, just that all the comments and drama surrounding this is becoming a mountian.

If he chooses to be a jerk when you ask for your domain back, and tells you where to go, then all of this drama and condemnation might be deserved. But if indeed this was a prank, then all of this could be overkill.

 

At 11/26/2005 2:38 PM, Anonymous HCN said...

John Best said: "The point regarding thimerosal and chelation has been proven. "

That keeps getting said, yet the evidence that is often provided is weak, shown to be flawed... and as noted on Autism-Diva's comment about the NYT ad, not to even say what the GR people thinks it says. For instance... papers that show up in "Medical Hypotheses" as 'proof'. Yet, all you have to do is to look up the word "hypotheses" to realize it is a guess (and for some of the paper, an UNeducated guess because the authors do not have the qualifications to make their conclusions).

Just repeating a statement over and over and over does not make it true.

Repeating the studies with qualified researchers and proper protocals does. So far that has not happened.

Also, even if chelation removes a specific element from the blood --- it does NOT repair the damage that has already occured.

What HAS happened is that mumps and measles are increasing in the UK because of Wakefield's paper on MMR... a vaccine withOUT thimerosal (which he was paid to write, and has NOT been replicated). What has also happened is that pertussis is also at a several decade HIGH, with an infant dying every few months because the herd immunity has gone down --- because of the efforts of Safeminds, NVIC and their ilk. Just see http://www.pertussis.com/share.html.

Also, what has happened is that some folks who have real medical credentials have seen desparate parents has gold mines. They have blown them over with pseudoscientific talk and convinced them to buy their new "cures". So now there are kids going through some questionable treatments. Not only are parents being scammed out of money that could be better spent on educational therapies... but some kids are being exposed to some serious medical risks. Why do some people seem to feel they can trust a doctor with a website selling supplements and oral chelation than they can trust a university researcher with a grant to study the genetics of autism?

Show us REAL evidence. Learn what the REAL evidence is. Do some reading in real textbooks... not the stuff written by your "heroes". Even the books by Oliver Sacks can give more insight into the complexity of neurology than the stuff I've seen pushed by the Mercury Mafia! Actually, here is one good place to start:
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/introb.html

 

At 11/26/2005 3:09 PM, Blogger Prometheus said...

Well, John Best is just bound and determined to prove my point. In his response, he wrote:

"The point regarding thimerosal and chelation has been proven."

This is a perfect example of points [1] and [3] - "act as though your point has been proven even when it hasn't" and "repeat the lie often enough and people will believe it". These tactics may work in court, John, but not in science - at least, not for very long.

John went on to write:

"Prometheus just has to have studies to accept any of this rather than taking the word of parents who've cured their kids."

That would be right, John. It's not that I don't "trust" the parents who claim that their children have been cured or that I think that they are lying - I ask for studies because I know how easily people can deceive themselves. People can be quite sincere and honest and still be wrong.

Science is what we do in order to keep from fooling ourselves into believing what we want to be true (a paraphrasing of Richard Feynman).

John seems to be obsessed with the idea of people lying. He assumes that I think that parents are lying when I don't believe them, he believes that the pharmaceutical companies (and the goverment, of course) are lying and he believes that doctors (except of course, the doctors he believes) are lying.

With all these people lying, it seems that only John and his cadre are telling the truth. It must take tremendous coordination between all of the parties to this massive conspiracy to keep the "lies" going. I assume that John thinks that I am lying, too, so I must also be a part of this conspiracy.

The funny part - to me, anyway - is that I don't remember getting the memo about how I was supposed to perpetuate "the lie" about thimerosal and autism. I suspect - although I have no direct evidence - that many of the other people on this blog also have not been getting instructions from the cabal coordinating "the lie".

John, people can be wrong and not realize it - they cannot, however, lie unconsciously. By accusing everyone who opposes you of "lying", you have - in essence - accused us all of being part of a conspiracy. And the problem with most conspiracy theories is that they become harder and harder to believe as you add more people to the list of "conspirators".

So, go ahead and "cure" your children. There is no need to wait for studies - I certainly won't (and can't) stand in your way. However, if you want to convince me - and I can't imagine why you would, but your actions indicate that you do - you'll have to produce some real data. I am perfectly willing to change my mind, given the proper data, but I won't change it just because you say I should.


Prometheus

 

At 11/26/2005 3:14 PM, Blogger Kev said...

Anon said:

"I am pretty sure a web page can contain a request not to be cached or archived."

You can do both but it has to be a concious decision - JP's site was hosted by blogger I think and there's no way they put either a PRAGMA-NO CACHE or INDEX-NO FOLLOW in the head of a page.

 

At 11/26/2005 3:45 PM, Anonymous Dan Glick said...

Sorry, I haven't read all the comments so I don't know if someone said this already. But for future reference, you can always buy a domain and have it redirect to your blogspot site. It's a good way of protecting your domain if you're not ready to get full hosting yet.

 

At 11/26/2005 3:53 PM, Blogger Orac said...

Prometheus reinforces a piece in which I actually wrote about how easy it is, even with the best of intentions, for even a fully trained physician to delude himself when he only looks at anecdotal data or his own personal observations, using a case from "conventional" medicine as an example. Potential biases, such as confirmation bias or regression to the mean, can confound even careful observers.

 

At 11/26/2005 3:54 PM, Blogger Orac said...

Dan,

I've considered that. You never know; I might actually do it ;-)

 

At 11/26/2005 4:06 PM, Blogger Ginger said...

Changing the subject back a bit. JB just posted this as a part of a larger response to this whole thing on my site.

"I started reading these blogs after hearing an unbelievable story that a blogger, who runs SupporVaccination.org, pulled a post from an EOH website, looked up personal details of the poster, and wrote a letter to this person’s employer, including his own commentary on the fact that this person was a Rescue Angel with us and a bunch of negative commentary about what the poster believes about autism and how to treat it, etc. In short, he tried to get this poster fired. When he was confronted with what I am now certain is fact, he shut down his blog."

I know you guys were discussing JP's disappearance. Do you know any thing about this?

Also he you guys should read his statement there in its entirity.

I only ask that any exchange with him on my site be civil and avoid arguements like, "you suck".

 

At 11/26/2005 4:13 PM, Anonymous John Best said...

Gee Prometheus, it would be nice if we knew who you were and could Email you privately. You claim if I say something often enough, it will be believed but what about the AMA and CDC saying their nonsense oftem enough to be believed? Your argument works both ways. The difference is that the liars in the CDC and the AMA are trusted by most parents. Parents don't expect these people to intentionally give them bad information that harms their kids. But, that's what they are doing when they insist that mercury plays no role in autism. You are welcome to come to my house and meet my son and look at old videos of him before chelation and then call me a liar if you want. In this case, common sense must prevail over your alleged scientific principles because nobody in a position of responsibility will admit the truth. I won't post here again but will discuss it with you if you want to Email me bettwice33@juno.com

 

At 11/26/2005 4:14 PM, Blogger Ginger said...

Sorry Orac,

I just saw this post from you:

"There will be NO commentary on personal or legal conflicts between people posting here."

I guess my last comment would fall under that.

Feel free not to post it if violates your policy.

Sorry.

 

At 11/26/2005 4:32 PM, Anonymous Camille said...

Ginger entirely misses the point of the abusiveness that Handley engaged in by buying the domain names and linking them to his page.

Ginger... do you not understand what it is to be bullied?

Well, goody goody for you if you have never been bullied,

but if you have been think about it, lets say... oh lets say that someone goes and buys "Gingertaylor.com" and "Gingertaylormom.com" and "GingerTaylerisagreatgal.com" and "adventureinautism.com" and 'adventurzinautism.com" and all the permutations of all the domain names that would seem to belong to you on the surface and then that person links them to let's say, "autistics.org" or "neurodiversity.com" or "autismdiva.blogspot.com"

The intent would be to humiliate you on some level.

So then when you sit there with your feelings hurt on some level that someone would stoop to such a low level of smarm... you think... 'Oh, all I have to do is go beg the bully to give me back my dignity"

Right, Ginger? Right? Isn't that what you would do?

Uhuh. And in the process give the bully what he wants, another sign that he has power over you.

Just wait until your child experiences this kind of bullying Ginger. It's coming if he hasn't had it yet.

And then you will know that you took a stand with the bully and didn't condemn what he did.

The same goes for Wade Rankin. How about if somone buys "waderankin.org" "waderankinesq.net" etc and links them to some site he finds objectionable? How about if he just goes and asks nicely to have the rights to the domain?

Feh. You people make me feel ill.

One more point. Now if someone wants to know who owns "autismdiva.com" they will think that JB Handley is Autism Diva.

What does that do to my credibility to have people think that I am in any way connected to JB Handley?

I have a reputation, one of honesty and integrity.

It's sickening for me to think about it being connected to JB Handley, sneak.

You, Ginger and Wade, may want to count him as your friend, and or ally, but I don't.

Excuse me I feel nauseated, funny they say ginger is supposed to be good for nausea.

 

At 11/26/2005 5:38 PM, Blogger Prometheus said...

John Best continues to show his obsession with "lying". Even after I explicitly said that I did not think that the parents reporting cures were "lying", he comes back with:

"You are welcome to come to my house and meet my son and look at old videos of him before chelation and then call me a liar if you want."

Again, in his obsession with "lying", John Best never seems to consider the possibility - nay, the probability - that two people could look at the same data and reach different conclusions. No, if someone disagrees with John, they have to be "lying".

I suppose that it is easier to hate someone if you think that they are lying to you - it's harder to work up a belly full of righteous indignation over a difference of opinion. And hate - be assured - is the issue here. John Best clearly wants to hate those who disagree with him - why else would he foreclose the possibility of rational discourse at the beginning of every "discussion" he enters?

Hate is a powerful tool to the demagogue, not only through inflaming it in his (or her) audience but also as an excuse for their own excesses. Hate allows the demagogue to justify deception, dishonesty, abuse, harrassment, violence and even murder. This is where I see Generation Rescue headed. I'm not sure that even a radical change in atttitude at the top could change the course they are on.

History has shown over and over that hate usually consumes the hater along with the hated. Hate is a powerful tool, but a deadly master.


Prometheus

 

At 11/26/2005 6:05 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have often wondered if Paul Collins, author of the book entitled: "Not Even Wrong: Adventures in Autism" is aware of Ginger, her blog and the name of her blog.

 

At 11/26/2005 6:49 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am treating my 11 year old autistic child biomedically (diet & nutritional interventions) as recommended on the Generation Rescue Website. Within days of beginning the protocol, the improvement in his health and well-being was undeniable. His muscle tone has increased significantly, and He can now participate in physical education at school. He's made great strides in auditory processing, and he now plays with his younger brother and sister and answers the telephone. He used to gag at the site of most foods; not anymore, because his sensory defensiveness has decreased. He is happy for the first time in his life. He hugs me every day. Please stop badgering the parents who want to improve their children's lives. And stop antagonizing those that want to help parents find ways to improve their children's health. Orac, if you don't post this, you're a coward.

 

At 11/26/2005 6:54 PM, Anonymous HCN said...

Anonymous wrote "I have often wondered if Paul Collins, author of the book entitled: "Not Even Wrong: Adventures in Autism" is aware of Ginger, her blog and the name of her blog."

A really wonderful book!

Probably, but I doubt he would even care. The main title is "Not Even Wrong", the rest is a sub title. And book titles are not copyrighted. It also does not look like Ginger has read that particular book.

From what I read in that book he does not buy into lots of the hype.

It is a great book, and it should be a MUST read for anyone interested in autism, or being a parent and coming to terms with any child with a disability (autism is NOT the only developmental disorder that exists!).

Other books in that genre I would also recommend include "No Time for Jello" by Berneen Bratt and "Deaf Like Me" by Spradley. I am presently reading Susan Senator's "Making Peace with Autism".

 

At 11/26/2005 7:20 PM, Blogger Ginger said...

I am sorry that you are upset with me Camille.

I feel that I have tried to take a neutral position on this little dust up, to report and comment on it (rather than becoming a part of it) and host a place for you and Orac (and JP if he resurfaces) to air your grievances to and against Handley.

It appears that you and a few others feel that in not taking a position against Handley, I am siding with him. I hope that you can see that I don’t feel that is the case.

I am unwilling to condemn him YET as I feel that people are allowed to screw up, even badly, and should be given a chance to fix their mistakes before they should be trashed. If you feel comfortable not giving him that chance, that is fine with me. It is completely your right. I don't begrudge your anger at him; please don't begrudge me my patience with him.

I am trying to offer a little grace to everyone in this debate, I feel it is the only way we are going to get to a place that is civil enough to hear one another views and appreciate one another's insight into the challenges that autism brings.

I would like to ask that you offer me the same grace and allow me the same freedom to take whatever stand that I feel it is my responsibility to take. If not, that is ok too.

 

At 11/26/2005 7:22 PM, Blogger Ginger said...

hcn,

I have not read that book. I will take a look at it.

Thanks for mentioning it.

 

At 11/26/2005 7:29 PM, Blogger Bartholomew Cubbins said...

Anonymous said, "I am treating my 11 year old autistic child biomedically (diet & nutritional interventions) as recommended on the Generation Rescue Website. Within days of beginning the protocol, the improvement in his health and well-being was undeniable."

Congratulations on discovering the dietary deficiencies that exacerbated your son's metabolic disorder. Everyone loves a success story.

Your coward comment is funny given your callsign.

If you really want to make your point, might I suggest the following: "Orac, why do you hate America?"

 

At 11/26/2005 7:57 PM, Blogger Prometheus said...

"Anonymous" trots out one of the oldest of the autism-mercury canards:

"Please stop badgering the parents who want to improve their children's lives. And stop antagonizing those that want to help parents find ways to improve their children's health."

Is it really necessary to point out that people have to come here in order to be "badgered" or "antagonized"? I don't see Orac going to their blogs and stirring up trouble.

It would be an entirely different issue if Orac (or myself) went to, say, the EoH group and started throwing accusations of lying around. Or if Orac bought up "generationrescue.net" and redirected it to his blog.

So, Anonymous, why don't you take some of your righteous indignation and ask the founder of Generation Rescue why he feels it necessary to commit petty harrassment of people who wish to quietly disagree with him?

As I see it, your argument is that if someone comes into my house uninvited and decides to get into a spirited political (or scientific) debate with me, that it is my fault that they are spending their time arguing? Or that I am "badgering" or "antagonizing" them if I disagree?

Your argument just doesn't make sense.

People who can't stand the idea of an idea they oppose existing somewhere in Cyberspace are unlikely to find a remedy for their discomfort.



Prometheus

 

At 11/26/2005 9:03 PM, Blogger Bartholomew Cubbins said...

"I am trying to offer a little grace to everyone in this debate, I feel it is the only way we are going to get to a place that is civil enough to hear one another views and appreciate one another's insight into the challenges that autism brings." If you do say so yourself. I guess since you ID yourself as a Christian and a Republican you figure you're pretty safe doing that.

What an amazingly synthetic veneer. Grace? What does Grace have to do with JB Handley and his personal fave of a Rescue Angel, John Best?

Why do I get the feeling that Dufflepuds are quoting scripture at me?

What does your patience and acceptance have to do with "autism is a myth"?

What does "let he without sin cast the first stone" have to do with 'outing' people, insulting their children, and cussing them out?

Steering clear of Godwin, did anyone out there watch the documentary, Mr. Death? Is it just me that sees more than one parallel (arrogance, supposed expertise, absolutism, and eventual defeat)?

 

At 11/26/2005 10:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank-you Bartholomew, this misuse of the term Grace has really been bothering me. Someone keeps abusing the term.

Grace is something that may be bestowed upon one -- from my understanding. It is not something that one human can grant another.

Perhaps I am being over pedantic, but the lack of understanding about what Grace really means is troubling to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_(religion)

 

At 11/26/2005 11:17 PM, Anonymous Camille said...

Ginger,

Way to take the moral high ground. (snerk)

You don't help people by taking a "neutral stance" when their actions need to be roundly condemned.

Like, say, Jr. kills the neighbors cat for the fun of it, do we say, "Now, now little junior sweetiekins, was it nice to kill mister kittycatkins with a baseball bat?"
"There there, now mummy doesn't want to be JUDGEMENTAL or anything.... here sweetie-pie have an ice cream and go beat on the puppy until you feel better."

One suspects that that kind of parenting is what brought us to this discussion. But then one is "old school" and thinks people ought to instill manners and decency into their children not just "grace".

If my kid did what JB Handley did, ... whoooooeeee,
he'd regret it. But my kid wouldn't do any of the sneaky and bulying stuff Handley has done, thank goodness.

Paul Collins (a very nice man) is using a different subtitle for his book now, at least for the paperback version. I wonder if he is trying to distance himself from Ginger's blog?

 

At 11/27/2005 2:00 AM, Anonymous HCN said...

JP's blog has appeared on the google cache... I stumbled on it by accident. I also found that someone in Montana Real Estate has been archiving Oracknows. Weird.

 

At 11/27/2005 3:00 AM, Blogger ebohlman said...

Again, in his obsession with "lying", John Best never seems to consider the possibility - nay, the probability - that two people could look at the same data and reach different conclusions. No, if someone disagrees with John, they have to be "lying". (Prometheus)

I've noticed that a lot of followers of "alternative medicine" seem to have a great deal of difficulty understanding the difference between the facts of their personal experiences and their attributions of those experiences. They experience something, jump to a conclusion (attribution) as to why it happened, and then treat any questioning of their attribution as an attempt to deny that the experience occurred.

In another forum, somebody mentioned that back in the 1920s several experiments showed that the symptoms associated with constipation were not caused by the absorption of toxic putrefaction products from the colon. This drew a response from a poster who asked if the original poster was saying that her grandmother was lying about the symptoms she experienced when constipated.. To her "constipation causes certain symptoms" and "the symptoms of constipation are caused by toxins" were the same statement. It's really the mentality that you're either right about everything or wrong about everything.

 

At 11/27/2005 9:14 AM, Blogger Orac said...

Sadly, I have noticed the same thing. Somehow the more vocal of these folks seem to become so emotionally caught up in their conclusion and so utterly and completely convinced that they are right that it never even seems to enter their mind that someone else might honestly and reasonably come to a different conclusion than they have. Anyone who does, they seem to think, must either be "lying" or a "pharma shill," because, it seems, to them their "truth" is so self-evident that only someone with dishonest motives would contradict it.

I also suspect that, because they are so emotionally involved in their conclusion, they become very disturbed when someone like you, Prometheus, or I look at their claims critically in the light of the state of scientific knowledge at present. Perhaps we come across as cold and detached or uncaring or even condescending to them.

 

At 11/27/2005 2:12 PM, Blogger Anne said...

Ginger, it is not in my power to offer grace, but I can offer you the opportunity to be honest.

You say that you gave Orac and Camille a place to express their anger, and then when people responded with anger, you belittled it as drama. You said that what JB is doing "is not wrong," then you said that you have no opinion on it one way or the other.

In trying to reconcile your conflicting statements, I conclude that you think JB did not do anything wrong, that his actions were heavy handed and possibly annoying, but that it was really no big deal. Is this a fair statement of your opinion?

I think that you are trying to conceal your honest opinions so that people on both "sides" will recognize you as a nice person. This gets in the way of any true understanding. You have to be honest first. If there is a gap to bridge, you have to bridge it within yourself before you can do it for others.

In a sense you are right that the appropriation of domain names a minor facet of the major issues in controversy, which include the question of how those with power treat those without. JB's handling of this "little dustup" is a typical resolution of such a power struggle: he retains ownership and control of autismdiva.com but graciously allows it to point to the diva blog as long as he feels like it. In your honest opinion, Ginger, is this a satisfactory resolution of the little problem you set out to solve?

 

At 11/27/2005 9:30 PM, Blogger ballastexistenz said...

A pet peeve, or something:

"I'm sorry you feel that way" is not an apology. Neither is "I'm sorry you are upset" or "I'm sorry you are offended" or any other version of that.

Those are back-handed insults designed to make the person who is saying them look nice, polite, and apologetic, while actually insulting the person they are directed at. It makes it sound as if it's the person's feelings that are the problem and the thing that should be focused on, rather than whatever deed was done towards that person.

I feel weird as an autistic person giving something approximating a manners lesson to non-autistic people. But I keep seeing that phrase over and over again and it is not ceasing to drive me nuts. It is a mean thing to say and it is a manipulative thing to say.

 

At 11/27/2005 11:20 PM, Blogger Ginger said...

All,

Most of your questions answered on the comments section of my blog.

Having trouble keeping up with both places and will be traveling tomorrow.

If I have not addressed your concerns in what I have already written there, then feel free to repost your comment on my site.

I will be traveling tomorrow and will get back to it as soon as I can.

Thanks

 

At 11/28/2005 12:16 AM, Anonymous HCN said...

ballastexistenz said: ""I'm sorry you feel that way" is not an apology. Neither is "I'm sorry you are upset" or "I'm sorry you are offended" or any other version of that.
...
I feel weird as an autistic person giving something approximating a manners lesson to non-autistic people. But I keep seeing that phrase over and over again and it is not ceasing to drive me nuts. It is a mean thing to say and it is a manipulative thing to say."

Please, do not feel that way. I have noticed that it seems that those who MOST need a lesson in manners are those who are getting it.

If you feel I have offended you, PLEASE tell me.

I personally feel that there has been some kind of disconnect in the world of the "Generation Angels" that taking someone ELSE's name as a domain name is not somehow wrong. I think it is wrong, no matter what the reason. Am I wrong?

 

At 11/28/2005 5:31 AM, Anonymous FredM said...

Orac, you may be interested in the following comment that I recently posted on the General Discussion thread of Ben Goldacre's Bad Science blog (http://www.badscience.net/), in response to some comments about a new acronym, ORAC, that has been associated with an MRSA pseudotherapy (see earlier comments on the thread to pick up the story):

"Orac is also the name of the excellent medical blogger whose blogs regularly expose pseudoscience at http://oracknows.blogspot.com. His old blogging platform was recently cybersquatted by J.B. Handley of Generation Rescue, a website that promotes belief in a thiomersal/autism link (the full story appears at http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/11/internet-squatter-j-b-handley.html). I wonder if the appearance of ‘ORAC’ as the brandname of some pseudotherapy is part of a coordinated attack?"

 

At 12/03/2005 11:45 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

JB said:
"I’ll hold my tongue (so as not to be deleted), but his actions are of the lowest form.”

What’s the alleged impropriety JP’s actions at supportvaccination.org? Could it be the blog YOU recommended Orac (JP's)has co stooped to a low standard? Any ideas is it a legal issue? Is it possible J.B is reacting to a JP suspicious impropiety measure? Perhaps JP needs to apologize to coanchoring a lower standard.

Also what is the connection between you, HCN, Prom, JP other than same beliefs for such cyber squatting".

 

At 12/04/2005 1:59 AM, Anonymous HCN said...

The only connection between us is a real understanding of science, a lengthy time on the internet (well, at least for a couple of us, I don't know the other two)... and living in the same country (though in different states).

Why does it interest you so?

Why does your list not include several others who have commented contrary to the GR's side on this blog entry?

 

At 12/04/2005 10:18 PM, Anonymous HCN said...

Oh, fnord... Lenny, do you think we sit around and play this game:
http://www.sjgames.com/illuminati/

Sorry... I have never met any of those other characters. JP ignored a message I sent to him... and I have no idea who Prometheus is.

And I hate games... I spell them as "bored games" (something to do with too many late night dorm sessions of Monopoly and the card game of "Hearts").

 

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