Monday, August 15, 2005

Dispatches from the road, part II: The Danish autism studies

This is a first for this blog.

I'm going to post something written by a guest blogger, Kristjan Wager. The reasons I'm posting are twofold. First, Kristjan, a fairly regular commenter on this blog who also happens to live in Denmark, has something interesting and informative to say about the Danish institute that did the widely-cited studies that failed to find a link between the thimerosal in childhood vaccines and autism. Second, I'm on vacation, and it's great to be able to put up at least one substantive post while I'm gone, with my only effort being to type a pithy introduction of a paragraph or two and do a little minor editing of the text for grammar and style. (English isn't Kristjan's first language, but minimal editing was required; I wish I could write so well in another language.)

One of the tactics used by those advocating a thimerosal-autism link is to attack the Danish study, since it is so widely quoted. Sometimes they try to attack the methodology, but, because the methodology was generally sound, such attacks usually don't get much traction. So, the next attack is to do a variant of the "pharma shill" attack, but this time on the scientists who did the studies, because they work for a government institute that manufactures vaccines. Indeed, RFK Jr. himself has said:

The Institute of Medicine as well as the Centers for Disease Control and the Food and Drug Administration base their defense of Thimerosal on four flimsy studies ginned up by the pharmaceutical industry and federal regulators who green-lighted the use of Thimerosal in the first place. Those fraudulent studies deliberately targeted European populations which were exposed to a fraction of the Thimerosal given to American children.
He's referring mainly to the Danish studies here. Never mind that he never says why the studies are "flimsy" or "fraudulent," never shows any evidence to support his assertion that they "deliberately targeted" any population to "hide" a link, and never showed that they were "ginned up" by pharmaceutical companies. In this background, Kristjan's commentary is more relevant. So, enough of my blathering (even on vacation I can't shut up). Here's Kristjan. Either leave your comments here, or you can e-mail Kristjan at public{AT]kristjanwager[DOT}dk.


*****
When debating autism and a possible link to childhood vaccinations and/or thimerosal, the Danish studies of a possible link are often brought up. There are several such studies, looking at different aspects of possible problems with childhood vaccinations, and so far they have all reached the conclusion that there is no link between neither childhood vaccinations nor thimerosal and autism.

When the studies are brought up, the proponents of a link often attack them based on their methodology and the authors of the studies. I haven’t analysed the studies well enough to be able to speak with any authority on the subject of the methodologies, however I can comment on the validity of the attacks on the authors. A good example of such an attack can be found on the blog adventures in autism, in which the author, ginger, writes:
The study is further compromised by the fact that several of the coauthors were employed by the Statens Serums Institut, the government owned vaccine manufacturer who would be held liable if it was indeed found that the use of thimerosal in vaccines contributed to autism.
Besides being an ad hominem fallacy, it also shows a lack of knowledge about the Danish health system and the Danish legal system. This post is an attempt to address the lack of knowledge. While doing this, I will also try to show why the idea that Statens Serums Institut might want to hide the connection, so it won’t influence their income, also is implausible.

First a little background on the Danish health system and Statens Serums Institut.

Denmark has universal health care, which means that everything except medicine
is free, and you will get financial aid for most medicine. In some countries with universal health care, there is a two-tiered system, in which most people have health insurance, ensuring that they get treated in a private hospital if they get sick. In Denmark that is not the case. Private hospitals exist, but were only allowed within the last two decades, and are not used much. The Danish health system also covers the cost for people with special needs, such as some people with autism. Vaccinations are considered normal health care, and as such they are given with no charge to the public.

Statens Serums Institut is a public enterprise that operates as a "market-oriented production and service enterprise". It operates under the Ministry of Health, and is covered by the Danish Health Law (Sundhedsloven) § 222 which, among other things, states that the institute secures the delivery of vaccinations, including the vaccinations to the childhood vaccinations program. According to § 222 2) the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of the Interior decides the rules regarding payment of the institute. A description of the Danish Childhood Vaccination Program can be found here.

If you look at Statens Serums Instituts annual report (pdf), you can see that the institute had a net revenue of 979.9 million kroner in 2004, and had a operational profit margin of 1.9%. All in all, the institute had a net income of just over 11 million kroner in 2004. That is approximately $2 million. In other words, Statens Serums Institut is by the standards of medical companies a non-profit business, and the institute has a very small profit in making the vaccinations.

One of the reasons why Statens Serums Institute has such as small net income is that it puts a lot of money into research and development, not only of new products, but also of existing products. Since the Institute, by law, has to ensure the delivery of childhood vaccinations, a lot of research goes into this aspect, which is why studies authored or co-authored by employees of the Institute are often cited when debating links between childhood vaccinations and other diseases/ailments. If you look at the annual report, you can see that they have the following comment:
On the research front, the Institute has documented that childhood vaccines do not cause other diseases such as autism and diabetes. This is of great importance to childhood vaccination programs world-wide.
In other words, it’s not only a link between childhood vaccinations and autism they research, its links between childhood vaccinations and any diseases/ailments. Statens Serums Institut doesn’t have anything to do with the monitoring the vaccinations once they are on the market. Instead the Danish Medicines Agency monitors the occurrence of side-effects of all medicines in Denmark, and can recall any medicine if there is a risk that they have serious side-effects.

The liability of Statens Serums Institut

First of all, if a link between childhood vaccinations, or any components in them, and autism was found, this would not make Statens Serums Institut liable. Since the childhood vaccination program is a state run program, it would be the State of Denmark that would be liable. Of course, since Statens Serums Institut is owned by the state, it doesn’t mean that employees there wouldn’t want to try to cover up a connection, so the state wouldn’t be held liable. However, there are some other things to take into consideration before reaching such a conclusion.

The Danish law system is different from the American law system, and it’s not possible to sue the state as it would in the US. Instead the liability is covered by "Lov om klage- og erstatningsadgang inden for sundhedsvæsenet", which deals with such issues within the Danish health care system. In chapter 3 of that law, the rules governing compensation for ailments gotten as a result of treatment are defined, while chapter 4 deals with compensation following ailments as a result of medicine. I haven’t been able find out if vaccinations would be considered treatment or medicine, but most people I’ve spoken to tend to believe it would be covered under medicine.

The law makes it clear that liability is not dependent upon the knowledge of harmful effects at the time of the administration of the medicine, nor even upon the fact that such effects should be plausible at the time. However there are some strict time frames for how long after a medicine (or treatment) was administered that it is possible to try to obtain compensation. In the case of treatment, it can happen up to five years after the patient or a relative discovered that there was a connection between the ailment and the treatment. In the case of medicine, it can happen up to three years after. In both cases it can’t be more than ten years after it happened. So, in the case of childhood vaccinations, it would mean that even if a link was found between the childhood vaccinations, or a component in them, and autism, any person who had the vaccination administered more than 10 years ago, would not be able to get any compensation under Danish law.

Now let’s go back to the original quote:
The study is further compromised by the fact that several of the coauthors were employed by the Statens Serums Institut, the government-owned vaccine manufacturer who would be held liable if it was indeed found that the use of thimerosal in vaccines contributed to autism.
Here we see that ginger is concerned that the coauthors would cover up a thimerosal-autism link because of liability. However, as I stated, any cases more than ten years old would make neither the state nor Statens Serums Institut liable according to Danish law, and, since Statens Serums Institut stopped using preservatives in their vaccinations in 1992, there would be no liability even if a definite link between autism and vaccinations were to be found now. I repeat, there would, under Danish law, be no liability for childhood vaccinations containing thimerosal causing autism.

All in all, I think it's reasonable to conclude that it is extremely unlikely that researchers at Statens Serums Institut would choose to risk their careers to cover up a thimerosal-autism link. And I haven't even gotten into all the legal aspects of what would happen to that person if they did in fact cover up so a link. This might be something I can cover in a future post, if Orac will let me post again.

151 example(s) of insolence returned:


At 8/15/2005 9:23 AM, Anonymous Big Al said...

Any good scientist, would jump at the chance to make new science, with dreams of a Nobel in the back of his mind. The thrill of seeing something new and saying "I did it!" Note for his also read her.

 

At 8/15/2005 10:59 AM, Blogger OutEast said...

Very interesting! A worthy guest post indeed:)

 

At 8/15/2005 12:31 PM, Anonymous Kristjan Wager said...

"Any good scientist, would jump at the chance to make new science, with dreams of a Nobel in the back of his mind."

And if that wasn't enough motivation, there are quite a few Danish laws that would kick in, if a scientists discovered the said connection between autism and childhood vaccinations, or any components of such.
Both the carrot and the stick is in action.

 

At 8/15/2005 3:06 PM, Anonymous paul said...

Kristjan

Thanks for the insight. I'm curious, what is the general attitude in Europe regarding this subject, esp as it compares to the US?

Is there a lower level of "concern" because there may be a different litigation environment? Or is there the same or more scrutiny from independent "watchdog" groups?

Thanks

Paul

 

At 8/15/2005 4:17 PM, Anonymous Kristjan Wager said...

In Denmark there is no concern regarding Thimerosal, but there is quite a bit of concern about childhood vaccinations leading to autism and other ailments.

I have not heard anyone in Denmark doubt the findings of the Danish studies because of the connection to Statens Serums Institut, though some think the results might be wrong.

I hope that answered your questions Paul.

 

At 8/15/2005 6:51 PM, Blogger hollywoodjaded said...

Thank-you Kristjan and Orac!

"In other words, Statens Serums Institut is by the standards of medical companies a non-profit business...."

Precisely!

And this begs a question I have had with http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/

I am curious if "adventures in autism" is a non-profit entity? Why? Well, because there is a solicitation for donations: A button to click for Paypal to "Make a Donation" and a link entitled "Wanna help?" [Further Mom's Research] which takes one to a personal wish list via Amazon.com

Moreover, I wonder what is the official non-profit status of "adventures in autism"? Is it a 501-c-3 ? And further, what is their research specialty and expertise? Lastly, who is on their, say, Medical/Scientific Board?

Just lots of rambling curiosity here from someone who has had much fiscal responsibility in non-profits.

 

At 8/15/2005 7:05 PM, Blogger Prometheus said...

I still find it odd that the autism-thimerosal cabal are so quick to attack researchers' potential biases or conflicts when the outcome is not to their advantage but are able to turn a blind eye to the glaring biases and appalling conflicts of interest in the people turning out "research" that supports their assertions.

If Madsen et al have a potential conflict of interest - which Kristjan Wager has thoroughly disproven - then what about Amy Holmes (treats autistic children with chelation for "mercury poisoning"), Jeff Bradstreet (ditto) and Geier & Geier (paid witnesses for parents claiming vaccine injury until repudiated by the federal courts)?

Is there any scientist or doctor who supports a connection between mercury and autism who is not potentially tainted with a conflict of interest?

Prometheus

 

At 8/16/2005 12:22 AM, Blogger Kev said...

Quick answer to Paul re: Europe.

Concerns about thiomersal in the UK are not high. Over here the vaccine bad-guy is MMR as demonised by Andrew Wakefield. There are *still* people over here, despite the total debunking of his Lancet study that listen to misinformation given out about him.

Its the US position on Wakefield I find fascinating though. A lot of anti-vaxxers swear blind its the evil mercury in vaccines which causes the autism. They then rush to defend Wakefields MMR study apparently without realising (or caring) that there's no thiomersal in MMR vaccines. RFK Jr pulled a particularly amusing howler along those lines on a recent Huffington post blog entry - he went off on another hyperbolic tirade about the evils of thiomersal ending with a line about autistic kids writhing in pain from stomach disorders. Another one failing to see (or failing to care) that these disorders are reported with MMR, not with thiomersal based vaccines.

 

At 8/16/2005 1:12 AM, Anonymous sisyphusian tax said...

It looks like "ginger" is doing the same kind of "research" that another of the mercury cabal, Teresa Binstock, does. They read what parents post on lists like "autismmercury" and "EoHarm" and draw biased conclusions and then report them to further mislead.

But perhaps I am wrong and ginger will tell us exactly what she intends to do with her research monies, will an IRB be called upon or will she just grab some kids and give them some vitamin pills and take note on what the effect is.

 

At 8/16/2005 3:45 AM, Anonymous Mongrel said...

There are *still* people over here, despite the total debunking of his Lancet study that listen to misinformation given out about him.

And don't forget the tabloids are still pushing the MMR=BAD message

 

At 8/16/2005 8:17 AM, Blogger M said...

What Kev said.

Though the Chelators are trying to gain ground over here in the UK too:
http://www.actagainstautism.org.uk/conf-info.html
Note that the speakers mentioned are all from the USA or France, with one exception.

 

At 8/16/2005 1:50 PM, Anonymous paul said...

Kristjan/Kev

Thanks for the response to my question.

It is interesting to try and follow this debate "sans" science. I have tried to follow the progress in the media in the US, where I think the Kirby/RFK crowd is gaining slow, steady traction, and thought there would be a similar trend in Europe. I'll have to read up on Wakefield.(Immunoblogging - a New Zealand blog has posted about anti-vax groups there, and thimerosal seems not to be the focus).

Once thimerosal has been vindicated (2 years?), the next culprit will have been identified, tying up several more years of valuable time and resources of doctors and scientists that could be working on real and important issues.

 

At 8/16/2005 5:51 PM, Blogger Wade Rankin said...

Kristjan,

I think you make some excellent points regarding the suspicions arising from the funding of the Danish studies. On the other hand, you have not discussed the other point Ginger –- as well as others -– make about the studies, that being the problem of methodology. Many of us believe there is a connection between thimerosal and the development of autism spectrum disorders in genetically predisposed children. Are we wrong in saying that the Danish studies compared in-patient numbers for the statistics representing the prevalence before the removal of thimerosal, but then counted all reported cases after the removal of thimerosal? If that is true, the studies are of limited value, if they have any value at all, regardless of the funding.

 

At 8/17/2005 4:21 AM, Blogger Kristjan Wager said...

Wade, I will refer you to the first part of the post, in which I make clear that I cannot comment on the methodology with any authority.

Having said that, I find the claims implausible, since the data would come from the ministry of health, and as such would be national. You can get regional data if you want to, but it would be more of an effort.

Another thing that speaks against this claim is that the article was published in a peer-reviewed magazine. Such a clear violation of simple research principles would have made the article get rejected straight away.

I am going to study the methodology of the studies at some stage, and then I will be more qualified to comment on it.

 

At 8/17/2005 4:57 AM, Blogger Ginger said...

Orac, in your opening statement, suggested that attacks on the methodology of the Denmark Study are unfounded:

“One of the tactics used by those advocating a thimerosal-autism link is to attack the Danish study, since it is so widely quoted. Sometimes they try to attack the methodology, but, because the methodology was generally sound, such attacks usually don't get much traction.”

…but you don’t mention why you think the attacks are unfounded.

I have done a mini version of a ‘methodology attack’ on the blog post that Kristjan discusses, as well as two other posts.

If I am bringing up problems with the studies that are unfounded, or have been addressed somewhere, I certainly would like to know, as I don’t want to be standing on shaky ground. I have not found a source yet that can adequately address the doubts I have about the study’s validity.

Can you point me towards a discussion of how the changes in the database did not skew the results of the study?

Thank You.

Ginger Taylor

 

At 8/17/2005 4:59 AM, Blogger Ginger said...

When I wrote the piece that was the launching pad for Kristjan’s post here, she wrote to me in the comments section and pointed out that my concern for liability by the Statens Serums Institute was unfounded, and based on a misunderstanding of Danish law. I responded that I would certainly defer to her or any other Dane on that topic, as my expertise in that area is nill. Upon reading her piece on the system in her country, she certainly seems made her case as to that point.

I do however, in the interest of self-defense, want to challenge the characterization of my ‘attack’ on the Denmark Study.

Here are the links to all my discussions of the Danish Study:
http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2005/07/file-under-things-that-call-for-cdc.html
http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2005/08/heres-why-disdain.html
http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2005/08/hurry-up-offense.html

Kristjan states that my attack on the Danish Study is an ad hominem one, and therefore a logical fallacy. It is not.

The definition of ad hominem according to Orac that Kristjan linked to is this:

“This mode of reasoning is a logical fallacy known as ad hominem: attacking the person presenting the argument, instead of pointing out a flaw in their actual argument. It’s a fallacy because even if the criticism of the person is true, his argument may still be valid. You can only tell if the argument is valid by examining the actual argument to see if it is actually valid.”

If you read the entire post, or even just the few paragraphs preceding and the one following the comment that was addressed in this post, I do point out flaws in their actual argument. I will repost them here for your consideration:

“The findings in the Denmark study have come under serious criticism. When the data of study was reviewed, it was found that the sampling presented fatal flaws. The low incidence of autism during the use of thimerosal can be attributed to the fact that the database that was used only tracked inpatient cases of autism at the time. At the point in time where thimerosal was removed, the database was expanded to include cases that were diagnosed at a large clinic outside of Copenhagen where 20% of the countries autistic patents were diagnosed. At the point in time where thimerosal was no longer used, but the cases of autism seem to have skyrocketed, the database had expanded further to include all cases of autism, inpatient and outpatient, in the country.

The study is further compromised by the fact that several of the coauthors were employed by the Statens Serums Institut, the government owned vaccine manufacturer who would be held liable if it was indeed found that the use of thimerosal in vaccines contributed to autism.

Finally, even if the study were reliable, applying it to the U.S. population as the IOM has done presents problems. Children in Denmark were administered less than half the amount of thimerosal of US children and it was given over a longer period of time.

Further, American children are subject to an autism rate at least 10 times that of Denmark. It seems to me to be like doing a study of Sickle Cell Anemia in Denmark and applying it to the population of Baltimore. Clearly children here have some other intervening factor that increases the threat, be it genetic, environmental or even the thimerosal dosage.”

The ‘attack’ on the researchers motives was not ad hominem as it was in the context of pointing out the problems with the study. The question of the researcher’s motives comes into play because they published something that, in my reading, has bad methodology and makes conclusions not supported by the data.

In that scenario, one naturally then asks the questions, “Why would they publish something with such obvious flaws, and why would they not protest when it is used so poorly on a global scale”?

My first line of inquiry, as is most people, is who are these people and what do they have to gain from publishing a flawed study? And, at the top of everyone’s list, in this country any way, is money.

Kristjan has provided several reasons why the liability issue does not come into play in Denmark, as it would here. She and I had a conversation about this in the comments section of my blog, where I proposed several other motives for such action. Please read the full discussion for a better understanding of my take on this in the full context.

I will be withdrawing my concern about legal liability and noting her description of the differences between our two countries in the medical and legal systems, as I defer to her in her analysis of the legal liability issue of thimerosal in Denmark.

But my pride compels me to note that the liability question was the weakest part of my indictment of this study. Many questions remained to be answered as to why this study is being relied on the way it is.

I would ask that she withdraw her accusation of ad hominem as my criticism of the study still stands if the motive questions are removed, and it does not meet the criteria for said classification presented by Orac himself.

 

At 8/17/2005 5:03 AM, Blogger Ginger said...

Kristjan,

I just read your post with the "peer review question". I seem to remember that there was a large criticism of the study that the journal didn't publish, saying that they didn't have space for it.

I think that was this study, but I might be getting it confused with one of the other thimerosal studies, so I could be talking out of my butt.

I will try to see if I can find that.

 

At 8/17/2005 5:13 AM, Blogger Ginger said...

Dear Hollywood,

In response to your concerns and in the interest of full disclosure:

I, Ginger Taylor, am a For Profit entity who has grossed $10 in donations from my blog in 2004 and 2005.

My net profits are $.05 as the domain name cost me $9.95.

I make no claim as to what the profits from my site are to be used for. Currently I am saving up my largess for a book, but who knows, I could decide to buy a candy bar instead.

I plan on disclosing my $.05 net on my taxes, but I don't plan on making my taxes available to the public or the press as I am not the president and no one cares.

 

At 8/17/2005 5:19 AM, Blogger Ginger said...

Prometheus,

IMHO everyone has conflicts of interest about everything, simply because we all have egos.

The big question is how do the interact with what we say and do and how much weight should they be given in evaluating our actions.

Questions for the ages my friend.

 

At 8/17/2005 5:26 AM, Blogger Ginger said...

Sys,

Is there a "grouchy fallacy"? Because I feel that you attacks on me are grouchy based.

I would expand on my silly notion, but I gotta go fill my son's tummy with vitamin pills.

Ginger... who should not be posting at 2am

 

At 8/17/2005 9:24 AM, Blogger Wade Rankin said...

Kristjan,

Thank you for the honest and thoughtful response to my question. Although I think your point about the study being published in a peer-review journal makes a good argument, I note that there are many who still attack the methodology of peer-reviewed studies that find a link between thimerosal and ASD. The problem with the methodology has been a major point of criticism for quite some time. Yet I have not seen anyone deny there was a change in the methodology, nor have I heard anyone explain why the change is irrelevant. All I have heard from those who deny the causative link is that the “well-respected” Danish studies prove there is no link. If I am wrong, I would like to know.

 

At 8/17/2005 12:26 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kev, You say that Wakefield has been debunked. Please point me to the study of autistic children that shows they do NOT have measles virus from vaccines in their gut.

Kristjan, Regarding the inpatient vs outpatient methodology flaw you said

"I find the claims implausible, since the data would come from the ministry of health, and as such would be national."

On page 43 of the IOM report where they ruled against a link they discuss the Danish study. Here is a direct quote:

"From 1991 to 1994, only inpatients were included in the Danish Psychiatric Central Register. Since 1995, both inpatients and outpatients have been included."

It seems quite clear to me that the Danish study is extremely flawed due to this factor and others as referenced by Ginger. It's also interesting to note that the IOM did not identify the inpatient/outpatient issue as a flaw of the study even though they included a section in the report to cover potential shortcomings.

Why would the Danish authors would make such obvious errors in this study and how was it possibly peer reviewed without these flaws identified? It's a very good question. But when you consider the same exact flaw was present in the Swedish study it's hard to explain this as an innocent coincidence.

 

At 8/17/2005 12:34 PM, Anonymous Michelle Dawson said...

What I wonder is why the Danish studies are discussed mostly to the exclusion of the UK studies (Andrews et al, 2004; Heron et al, 2004).

The UK has experienced the same supposed "epidemic" of autism at the same time with the same resulting prevalence as the US. Mark Blaxill went through a lot of trouble to "prove" this.

It is hard to argue that the UK studies are irrelevant, unless you equally agree that amount and concentration of injected mercury are irrelevant to rates of autism.

In other words, in the UK, either you accept the results of the studies, which show no relationship between injected mercury and autism. Or you argue that the UK studies are irrelevant because the kids in the UK received much lower amounts and concentrations of injected mercury (this is Mr Kennedy's way of dismissing Andrews et al, 2004).

This argument is in essence that autism "epidemics" can happen either with or without the high amounts/concentrations of thimerosal injected uniquely into US children. This is called shooting (so to speak) yourself in the foot.

 

At 8/17/2005 12:50 PM, Blogger Ginger said...

Michelle,

I will take your question, as I am the one that started all this.

Speaking for my self as to why I have not addressed the UK studies, I spent a lot of time on the first two, Verstraeten and Denmark, which were the two that I had heard quoted in my experience in the real world from pediatricians when the subject of vaccination safety had come up.

I found that those two were such a mess, that after that when I would look at an another one of these studies, I would not spend much time or thought on them.

I just figured if they were any better, then people would be quoting them instead of Denmark and Verstraeten.

At one point I was skimming one of the UK studies and came across the phrase, "adjusted for housing tenure" and just gave up on it.

They could be a lot more useful than the two I have discussed on my site. I have not bothered to look very hard.

Why if they are better do you suppose that people don't quote them instead of the two I mentioned?

 

At 8/17/2005 1:06 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Michele,

The problem with all of those studies is that even if they are perfect they may not be sufficient to determine if a small percentage of the population had an adverse reaction to a vaccine. The president of the IOM went on national tv and said he wasn't sure if the rates of autism were increasing. That tells me that there may be an issue in diagnosing it and counting up the numbers. So why are we wasting time with epidemiological studies?

There are thousands of autistic children that could be studied. There are tons of clinical data that can be used. There are biological and molecular studies that support a link. None of this information was considered by the IOM. I hate that my son has the classic symptoms of autistic enterocolitis and I'm not even allowed to do a test to find out if he has the measles virus in his gut. Can you believe that? To make matters worse, I have to listen to Kevin preach about how Wakefield was debunked yet where is the study showing autistic children do NOT have the measles virus in their gut.

I don't understand how this argument got to be about thimerosal causes autism or MMR causes autism when someone ought to be viewing all of these things as a whole. Our kids didn't just get thimerosal or didn't just get the MMR. They received them in combination with many other vaccines at a very young age.

Am I the only one that looks at these 5 epidemiological studies and says how could you possibly reach a conclusion simply based on that?

 

At 8/17/2005 1:10 PM, Blogger Ginger said...

also... a thought in response to this:

This argument is in essence that autism "epidemics" can happen either with or without the high amounts/concentrations of thimerosal injected uniquely into US children. This is called shooting (so to speak) yourself in the foot.

Maybe not.

If the genetic vulnerability + mercury = some cases of autism theory is true, then all sources of mercury come into play.

In a country that does not show an adjustment in the rate of autism when thimerosal is introduced or removed, I think one would at least have to check for changes in the amount of mercury found in the environment to see if there could be any interaction before the mercury/autism hypothesis could be dismissed.

There was a study out of Texas a few months ago that found that there was a correlation between autism diagnosis rates and the amount of environmental mercury in Houston.

To me, it seems that there are just so many potential confounders to these epidemological studies, that they should be considered interesting, and helpful to some degree, but that the mercury/autism hypothesis cannot rise and fall on them.

 

At 8/17/2005 1:46 PM, Blogger Kristjan Wager said...

"Kristjan states that my attack on the Danish Study is an ad hominem one, and therefore a logical fallacy. It is not."

No. I attacked that particular part of your attack as an ad hominem attack.
Either the methodology stands on or it doesn't. Regardless of any connection to Statens Serums Institut.

I hope that my post has made clear why such a connetion is not suspect, and even is logical.

 

At 8/17/2005 1:50 PM, Blogger Kristjan Wager said...

"It seems quite clear to me that the Danish study is extremely flawed due to this factor and others as referenced by Ginger. It's also interesting to note that the IOM did not identify the inpatient/outpatient issue as a flaw of the study even though they included a section in the report to cover potential shortcomings."

Anon, that would only be a flaw if the authors of the studies/articles didn't make clear how the change affects the numbers. If they make that clear, then there is no problem in changing numbers.
As I said, that would be standard pactice. When better numbers become available, you use those, but you make sure to make clear how the new means of collecting the numbers affects the results.
You do the same in economics and other statistics based studies.

So far I haven't properly looked at the articles, so I can't say if there are flaws or not.

 

At 8/17/2005 1:54 PM, Blogger Kristjan Wager said...

BTW, while doing a bit of research on the article I have spoken to medical students and doctors I know, some of which who works with autism, and they all said that while they could not completely rule out a connection between mercury and autism, such a connection would go against all the understandings of how autism works/develops.

Food for thought in my opinion. Especially since it was also said by medical people who work to treat and take care of autistic people.

 

At 8/17/2005 1:58 PM, Blogger Kev said...

Anon writes:

Kev, You say that Wakefield has been debunked. Please point me to the study of autistic children that shows they do NOT have measles virus from vaccines in their gut.

Sure: http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/?p=217

 

At 8/17/2005 2:11 PM, Anonymous HCN said...

Ginger, you seem to have lots to say. You really ought to try engaging the Healthfraud listserv members.

http://quackwatch.org/00AboutQuackwatch/discuss.html

 

At 8/17/2005 2:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anon, that would only be a flaw if the authors of the studies/articles didn't make clear how the change affects the numbers. If they make that clear, then there is no problem in changing numbers."

Kristjan, I obviously can't speak for Denmark but in the US most children are not diagnosed with autism in a hospital. Hospitals are mostly reserved for emergencies and planned procedures requiring an overnight stay. If Denmark is anything like the US in this regard I have to assume that it would have a dramatic change in the numbers. Or perhaps you believe that thimerosal, a known neurotoxin, actually prevents autism.

 

At 8/17/2005 2:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kev,

To test for measles virus in the gut one needs to perform a biopsy, not a blood test. That study you reference is not even close to proof that autistic children do not have measles virus in their gut.

 

At 8/17/2005 2:48 PM, Blogger Kristjan Wager said...

"Kristjan, I obviously can't speak for Denmark but in the US most children are not diagnosed with autism in a hospital. Hospitals are mostly reserved for emergencies and planned procedures requiring an overnight stay."

Hopsitals are used more broadly in Denmark. Normal doctors are used for general tests and curing common problems, but more advanced stuff is usually left ove to speciality clinics or hospitals. As far as I know, tests for autism is done in hospitals, though I might be mistaken. This is something I need to check up upon.

"If Denmark is anything like the US in this regard I have to assume that it would have a dramatic change in the numbers."

As I just said, Denmark is not anything like the US in this regard, so your experiences/knowledge based upon the US system can't be used as a premise.

"Or perhaps you believe that thimerosal, a known neurotoxin, actually prevents autism."

Maybe there is no connection between thimerosal and autism? Maybe thimerosal damages your immune system, and thus makes it easier for autism to happen? I don't know. What I do know, however is that every peer-reviewed study shows that there is no clear link between autism and thimerosal, and that it clearly can't be the cause of autism.

Danish scientists seems to think it's likely that there might be a connection between polution and autism, and that the effect happens at the fetus stage. This is a link they are trying to explore right now, and which could explain much of the raise of autism in recent decades.

 

At 8/17/2005 3:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kristjan,

We can argue the Danish studies all day but if you read Ginger's blog she gives a great summary of why epidemiology (flawed or unflawed) is not the ideal study to draw conclusions from. Even the IOM in their 2004 report states something to this effect (which completely contradicts their findings).

I'm glad to see your country is at least looking at environmental causes of autism.

 

At 8/17/2005 4:32 PM, Blogger Kev said...

Well Anon - I could go with what you say, or I could go with what the scientists say. Overall, I think I'll go with the scientists. Sorry.

As I said in my own blog entry about it - hardcore anti-vaxxers will never let it go. Here's a study that shows researchers looking for measles and not finding it in 99% of cases - and its apparently still not enough. Some people will simply never be convinced.

 

At 8/17/2005 4:59 PM, Anonymous Michelle Dawson said...

The mercury/autism and/or vaccine/autism gangs totally discount the importance of epidemiology, which they call irrelevant. At the same time, they promote the existence of an autism "epidemic" (see the cover of Mr Kirby's book) in order to "prove" that thimerosal and/or the MMR cause autism.

This seems a bit selective to me. If you reject the validity of epidemiology, you can hardly declare an epidemic.

 

At 8/17/2005 5:24 PM, Blogger Wade Rankin said...

Michelle,

Most of us don't dimiss epidemiology in its entirety. We simply believe it is too severely limited and flawed to provide a definitive answer when biological evidence preponderates in favor of a different conclusion.

 

At 8/17/2005 7:32 PM, Blogger Kev said...

Wade - biological evidence in favour of what conclusion? That thimerosal in vaccines caused the 'autism epidemic'?

You, of course, have this evidence to hand to share with us all.

 

At 8/17/2005 8:29 PM, Blogger Wade Rankin said...

Oh Kev,

You've been around long enough to know very well the studies to which I refer. I realize very few people around here believes in the methodology used in those studies, but I'll still refer to them in making the point that I believe epidemiology has a place in the inquiry, just not the last word. by the way, I would agree that the jury is still out on the biological studies as far as replication, etc. goes. I just haven't seen anything else to refute the findings by james, Burbacher, etc.

 

At 8/17/2005 8:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wade,
To save us the trouble of having to wade through those studies, which findings would those be? The non-finding that thimerosal depletes glutathione in children with autism or the non-finding of activated microglia in monkeys injected with thimerosal?

 

At 8/17/2005 11:35 PM, Blogger Orac said...

Hi, all. Maybe I should have known better than to post an article that would cause controversy while on vacation. I hope you'll all forgive me if I don't have much time to respond right now, given my present dialup Internet access, which is extremely painful to work with, not to mention that I did a lot of driving today and am beat.

When I get home late next week, perhaps I'll pull up the most recent summaries of the studies that failed to find a link between thimerosal and autism and perhaps do a little analysis. In the meantime, my thanks to Kev and Michelle for wading into the discussion and especially Kristjan for writing such a thought-provoking piece for me to post in my absence.

 

At 8/18/2005 1:15 AM, Blogger Ginger said...

Kristjan,

Let me restate my position more clearly.

Here is an alternate definition of Ad Hominem from Wikipedia:

“An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument to the man"), is a logical fallacy that involves replying to an argument or assertion by addressing the person presenting the argument or assertion RATHER THAN the argument itself.”

This exists when the person is attacked INSTEAD OF the argument.

What I did in my piece was to attack the argument, then question the conflict of interest of the people making the argument, then go back and attack the argument again.

The personal attack was IN LIGHT OF AND IN ADDITION TO the valid criticism of the study itself.

Let me break it down. Of the paragraphs I posted above, which was the entire criticism of the Denmark Study, there were four.

Paragraph 1 attacked the methodology and conclusions of the study – a valid attack on the argument. (That one in this conversation has punched any holes in as of yet)

Paragraph 2 noted the conflict of interest of the researchers – an attack on the motives of the people involved in the study, and, arguably, those who cite the study.

Paragraphs 3 and 4 attacked the application of this study in a population that is beyond the scope of the sample – further valid attack on the argument.

Again… I want to emphasize, ad hominem applies when ONLY THE SOURCE OF THE INFORMATION IS CRITICISED, and the actual information is not criticized.

Once an argument has been deconstructed, as I had deconstructed the methods of the Denmark Study, it is perfectly fine to then speculate as to why the poor argument was made in the first place or note conflict of interest that may have led to the poor argument.

If this were not the case, no one could ever question the motives or biases of anyone with out committing a logical fallacy.

You simply pulling that paragraph away from the other three does not make it into an ad hominem, because I offered it as a follow up to valid criticism. A person has to COMMIT ad hominem, it cannot be thrust upon them.

I will offer an analogy.

Saying, “He is a jerk”, is an ad hominem attack
Saying, “He punched his mother in the face. He is a jerk”, is a valid argument.

Quoting this person and leaving out the first sentence of his assertion does not make his attack into a logical fallacy. As a matter of fact, I think it can be argued that it would be an example of quote mining.

In light of this, will you now retract your accusation that I made an ad hominem attack on the researchers of the study, and those who apply it to the U.S. population?

 

At 8/18/2005 1:21 AM, Blogger Ginger said...

I hope that my post has made clear why such a connetion is not suspect, and even is logical.

And I just wanted to make sure you were clear that I do think that you made the case that legal liability would not be a source of bias in this case.

There are several other potential sources of bias that could be discussed, but unless any one has any facts or illucidating internal memos, we would all be speculating.

 

At 8/18/2005 1:41 AM, Blogger Ginger said...

Kristjan,

One more thing:

Anon, that would only be a flaw if the authors of the studies/articles didn't make clear how the change affects the numbers. If they make that clear, then there is no problem in changing numbers.

True, but I can't find where they made "clear how the change affects the numbers".

They mention that it probably does effect the numbers, they mention that they saw the same upward trend when only looking only at inpatient cases through out the entire span of the database, but the never show HOW this change effects the final numbers, don't offer data on the inpatient trend and just skip straight to the conclusion where they totally ignore the confounder that they had admitted to in the previous sentence.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, if you can dig up a more complete version of the study than the one that Pediatrics published, that would go a long way in countering all the charges that I have made against the study.

IMHO this study is only good if you throw out the conclusions and draw your own conclusions from the methods and data that they did offer.

And it is no where near what it sould be to be relied on the way it is by IOM et. al.

 

At 8/18/2005 3:26 AM, Blogger Kristjan Wager said...

Like Orac, I am on vacation. I'm visiting friends in Ireland that I haven't seen since they moved from Denmark five and 12 months ago.
Not surprisingly, I prefer to spend as much time with them as possible, so my internet time is severly limited.
I will be back in Denmark in one week, and then I'll participate more fully.

 

At 8/18/2005 3:29 AM, Blogger Kristjan Wager said...

And I just wanted to make sure you were clear that I do think that you made the case that legal liability would not be a source of bias in this case.

There are several ot