Monday, January 30, 2006

Another perspective on Abubakar Tariq Nadama

Recently, I took Dr. Mary Jean Brown, Chief of the Lead Poisoning Prevention Branch of the Centers for Disease Control to task for some ill-considered and ill-advised comments about the death by chelation therapy of a five year old autistic boy named Abubakar Tariq Nadama in August. I wasn't the only health care professional who thought her remarks to be pretty off base. Indeed, Dr. Kimball Atwood also thought her remarks were pretty poorly considered:
Roy Poses was absolutely correct that Dr. Mary Jean Brown, the CDC’s “expert in chelation therapy,” missed the real point of the tragedy: that the child was a victim of quackery, not merely of “medical error.” The truth is even more disturbing than that, however. Dr. Brown may have been technically correct that if calcium-disodium EDTA had been used instead of disodium EDTA, the child would likely not have died of hypocalcemia (though he might have died of another complication; calcium-disodium EDTA is also a dangerous drug). But this was not a simple case of mistaken drug identity, or "look-alike/sound-alike medications," as Dr. Brown supposed. Disodium EDTA is the form of EDTA preferred by the major advocacy group for all implausible uses of "chelation therapy," the American College for Advancement in Medicine (ACAM)*—the same organization that the FTC had cited in 1998 for “false or misleading” claims regarding “chelation therapy” and atherosclerosis.

The reason for that preference seems to be that when EDTA was first being pushed as a miracle cure for atherosclerosis (‘60s-‘70s), its purported mechanism was to leach calcium from plaques. That claim, which can still be found in pro-chelation literature, has largely given way to the theory that chelation works as an anti-oxidant by removing heavy metals such as mercury, lead, copper, and iron. Both of these theories are implausible on stoichiometric and physiological grounds. The disodium form of EDTA persists as the ACAM-recommended preparation, not only for atherosclerosis but for arthritis, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, psoriasis, high blood pressure, scleroderma, cancer, macular degeneration, and more. The rationale for “chelation therapy” in autism, according to advocates, is that the disease is caused by mercury poisoning—mainly from childhood immunizations. This claim is not supported by epidemiologic studies.
More damning, he points out the NIH-funded trial looking at chelation as a "therapy" for atherosclerotic disease and sees Dr. Brown's remarks as an unintentional indictment of the NIH for funding that trial:
The NIH language implies that disodium EDTA for any other purpose is merely “off-label” and is safe, which is what chelationists and their influential champions assert (see p.2 of this slow-loading document). But this is misleading, because the FDA has specifically contraindicated disodium EDTA for atherosclerosis, and a “black box” warning states: “The use of this drug in any particular patient is recommended only when the severity of the clinical condition justifies the aggressive measure associated with this type of therapy.” Thus the numerous unapproved uses of disodium EDTA, prescribed by that strange subculture of practitioners who preach “detoxification” as a near-panacea, do not meet FDA standards for off-label use. On p. 37 of the TACT protocol, version 2, NIH investigators refer to such practitioners as “prominent experts.”

Perhaps unbeknownst to Dr. Brown, her statements would seem to challenge the NIH to explain why it would expose human subjects to a drug that the CDC considers highly dangerous, when a less dangerous substitute is readily available. The larger question is why the NIH would expose 2300 human subjects in a Phase III study of a treatment that has yet to successfully graduate from Phases I or II, and that has not been substantially studied in animals. Federal Code states: “Phase III studies…are performed after preliminary evidence suggesting effectiveness of the drug has been obtained…” The Declaration of Helsinki states: “Medical research involving human subjects must…be based on a thorough knowledge of the scientific literature…and on adequate laboratory and, where appropriate, animal experimentation.”
Indeed. It has never ceased to amaze me that a therapy like chelation therapy for cardiovascular disease, a disease for which there is no evidence that it works and plenty of evidence to suggest that it is no better than placebo, has graduated to a major NIH-funded Phase III study without having passed through the usual hurdles required of new therapies, namely evidence of effectiveness in animal models and then Phase I and/or Phase II studies. Alties frequently complain that "conventional medicine" doesn't give them a chance, doesn't let them prove themselves on a level playing field. It's true that alternative medicine doesn't compete on a level playing field with conventional medicine, but not in the way alties think. In actuality, alternative medicine is held to much lower standards than conventional medicine. In fact, the chelation therapy trial described above is perhaps the best example of giving alties a pass on the usual standards of evidence before funding a major Phase III trial. It is in essence affirmative action for "alternative medicine" and quackery. No drug developed by big pharma, not even Vioxx, got that big a pass. If I were to submit a grant application to fund a trial to test the efficacy of a conventional medication based on evidence as thin as the evidence that got this trial funded and the even thinner evidence that got the trial for the Gonzalez therapy for pancreatic cancer funded, I'd be laughed out of the study section and my application filed in the circular file.

Dr. Poses of the same blog also has a take on this issue that I should have thought of before, namely how a CAM misadventure with a therapy that was being used for a disease for which it should never have been used is attributed to a "drug mixup," just as if it were a medical error:
Chelation therapy for conditions other than lead poisoning has been advocated widely in the complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) community, as per this post in Quackwatch. It is easy to find CAM web-sites that tout chelation therapy for autism, e.g., here and here. There is no good evidence from clinical research to support the use of chelation with calcium disodium EDTA for autism. Substituting a similar, but more dangerous medication for an anecdote-based CAM treatment was not a medical error, because it did not occur in the course of conventional medical treatment. So perhaps it should have been called a "CAM error."

Physicians who attempt to base their practice on science have already been saddled with the responsibility for innumerable medical errors. They do not deserve to also be made responsible for the misadventures of alternative practitioners.
I wish I'd said that.

Even if Dr. Roy Kerry, the quack who killed Abubakar, did mix up the medications, the bottom line is that attributing Abubakar's death to a "medication error" partially lets Dr. Kerry off the hook. It implies that, if he had simply not screwed up the medication (a contention that is not at all clear or proven) that it would then have been acceptable for him to use a potentially lethal medication for a condition for which there is no credible scientific or clinical evidence that this medication does any good. It wouldn't have been acceptable, and it wasn't. Dr. Brown's remarks in essence excuse Dr. Kerry's quackery.

123 example(s) of insolence returned:


At 1/31/2006 1:43 AM, Blogger Bartholomew Cubbins said...

I'm glad to see Kerry getting the Superfly Snuka from the top rope treatment, and I think it's a shame that the practise of chelation got an out via Brown's comments.

But I've also been wondering, given recent comments on other blogs, if there is any way to avoid being called insensitive, hypocritic, or opportunistic in discussing this tragedy in an attempt to learn without sticking to strictly hollow comments. I have *no* problem with your post, but then I didn't see a huge problem with Diva's post that got a napalm response.

I'm also hoping that Fore Sam doesn't crack and show up on someone's doorstep with an axe.

 

At 1/31/2006 6:14 AM, Blogger Kev said...

Brown's comments were very ill-advised. Particularly the statement that if administered correctly, EDTA should be safe for treating autism. The unknowns blithely swept aside in that statement are flabbergasting.

Chelation is essentially a chemical process - it alters the bodys chemical makeup.

Bearing that in mind, consider teh following:

"This review focuses on recent advances in the in vivo study of the whole brain in idiopathic autism…..Diffuse abnormalities of brain chemical concentrations, are…found. Abnormalities of ….brain chemistry…are evident by early childhood…. (c) 2006 Wiley-Liss, Inc."

Source

So, the brains of autistic people are chemically different from non-autistics. Chelation is a poorly understood process that alters the chemical composition of the recipient.

Given that there have been no safety trials into treating autism with chelation, how can those who advocate its use rule out all the unknowns in that scenario?

Eficacy trials are important. Safety trials are vital.

 

At 1/31/2006 8:00 AM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Knocking chelation with disodium EDTA is appropriate. Knocking chelation with DMSA and ALA is something else. You already know that is safe from using it for years to treat mercury poisoning. The only problem here is that colleagues of the doctors who negligently poisoned thousands of babies into autism are sticking by their associates just like cops do when one of them beats the hell out of an innocent citizen. If you want your proof, just ask and I'll find kids all over the country that you can visit and see for yourself that the chelation made them normal. Denying the link between mercury and autism is simply more malpractice. Why don't you admit the truth and help cure the kids that were poisoned by the medical profession's negligence?

 

At 1/31/2006 8:47 AM, Blogger clone3g said...

For Spam: "If you want your proof, just ask and I'll find kids all over the country that you can visit and see for yourself that the chelation made them normal."

OK - ASKING. Now produce your proof.

 

At 1/31/2006 9:10 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

The only problem here is that colleagues of the doctors who negligently poisoned thousands of babies into autism

Evidence, please? Maybe this time, you can actually provide it, instead of an argument from volume.

If you want your proof, just ask and I'll find kids all over the country that you can visit and see for yourself that the chelation made them normal.

And how would that negate the cases of children who weren't made "normal" by chelation. Same old appeal to elitism: You're expecting us to accept it on faith that your anecdotes are inherently, magically superior to negative anecdotes.

Denying the link between mercury and autism is simply more malpractice.

I won't deny it if I see it. Show it to me. With, you know, science. I don't want to hear a post hoc fallacy.

Why don't you admit the truth and help cure the kids that were poisoned by the medical profession's negligence?

Why don't you admit the truth? That there's no link, and there's no cure yet.

Your repeated inability to prove either of those points beyond shouting your conclusion over and over on Prometheus's blog suggests that you have no intention of proving your accusations.

Prove the null hypotheses wrong: Show me properly controlled statistical analyses demonstrating a link, and/or a properly controlled and blinded test of chelation. Why do you keep running away from such a simple request?

I am not taking your word for it, especially since when asked for proof in the past, you've resorted to accusations, insinuation, innuendo, subject changes, and appeals to elitism. For that reason, I've become very suspicious of your motives.

 

At 1/31/2006 9:29 AM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Clone;
Where do you live? Give me a few personal references so I know you're not an axe murderer and I'll arrange for you to meet some cured kids.
Dog;
One microgram of mercury is safe according to the CDC. The kids got about 200 micrograms. Google, Geier, Deth, Hornig, etc and do your own research to see the proof that the IOM denied because the CDC told them to deny it. Your ad hom arguments aren'tmaking you look very intelligent.

 

At 1/31/2006 9:48 AM, Blogger clone3g said...

Fore Sam said...
"Clone;
Where do you live? Give me a few personal references so I know you're not an axe murderer"


I am not an axe muderer. That should be all the proof you require, judging by your definition of proof.

 

At 1/31/2006 10:07 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

One microgram of mercury is safe according to the CDC. The kids got about 200 micrograms. Google, Geier, Deth, Hornig, etc and do your own research to see the proof that the IOM denied because the CDC told them to deny it. Your ad hom arguments aren'tmaking you look very intelligent.

1. Question you've never answered: Are you talking about mercury or thimerasol? Or are you talking about some different definition of mercury than mine?

2. I have done my own research. I just keep failing to find anything of significance that agrees with you. No, unverifiable, uncontrolled, unblinded just-so stories don't count. You should know why.

3. You're making the claim. You're the one who has to support it. Besides, the way Google works, asking me to look for the necessary support is like wading through the whole of the Pacific Northwest for Bigfoot. If you want to prove Bigfoot exists, show him to me.

4. From what I've seen of those people you've mentioned, they don't seem to be interested in doing anything more than collecting uncontrolled, unblinded just-so stories known as "anecdotes." Show me a specific study of theirs that meets the appropriate minimum standards.

5. Don't change the subject to the organizations.

6. I was attacking your style of argumentation. My attack on you is a conclusion based on that style, not a necessary premise to my arguments. Therefore, it's not an ad hominem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

At 1/31/2006 10:49 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bronze Dog,
Your attempts to have John Best apply the tools of logic, though admirable, are quite futile.

It's the equivalent of offering a reed to a bonobo and then expecting him to extract a Macrotermitinaen morsel with no further instruction.

Or, in terms John will understand, his brain doesn't work right.

And John, regarding your axe murderer screening program, I doubt anyone would feel comfortable trusting your judgement where matters of child safety are concerened.

 

At 1/31/2006 11:05 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

I know. Deep down, I still manage to be an optimist. Besides, I feel obligated to prevent Fore Sam's brand of "argument" by accusation, subject change, yadda, yadda from going on without being pointed out. And more recently, back to equivocation with the "mercury" stuff. Are we talking about Hg(l), Hg+ (aq), or HgC(42)H(99)O(616)?

Bronze Dog abhors the vacuous.

 

At 1/31/2006 11:42 AM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Once again, as usual, Clone attacks me with a stupid remark but doesn't give me the references to set up the meeting. He's afraid of what he'll find that proves his stance wrong.
Anonymous doesn't understand that in presenting a valid argument, lying nullifies any semblance of validity. Insults don't strenghthen his position.
The rest of this yacking just attempts to evade the question of why the medical profession refuses to tell the truth and continues to practice malpractice by injecting more mercury into babies.

 

At 1/31/2006 12:02 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Once again, as usual, Clone attacks me with a stupid remark but doesn't give me the references to set up the meeting. He's afraid of what he'll find that proves his stance wrong.

What are you talking about? He met your standard of proof by asserting that he wasn't an axe murderer. Oh, wait. I forgot. We're dealing with double-standards.

The rest of this yacking just attempts to evade the question of why the medical profession refuses to tell the truth and continues to practice malpractice by injecting more mercury into babies.

Funny. I thought we were arguing about what the truth is. I thought the subject was "does this cause autism" and "does this cure autism. Apparently no one informed me precisely how, when, or where this truth came from. The Book of Revelations, perhaps? Or maybe the Book of Fore Sam's anecdotes that are heresy to question by bringing up standards beyond unverifiable, uncontrolled, unblinded just-so stories.

Oh, wait, that's right: Fore Sam's doing more faith-based accusations, since he's not interested in discussing evidence for his conclusion. He just wants to keep on shouting it and changing the subject whenever anyone asks him to show his work.

Oh, and by the way, while you're dodging, here's another ball headed your direction yet again: What do you mean by "mercury"? Your definition seems a great deal different than the ones I was taught in chemistry. The ones I'm most familiar with are the liquid metallic form of the element Hg and the ionic form. I've never seen any sign of those being injected with vaccines.

 

At 1/31/2006 12:06 PM, Blogger clone3g said...

For Shame: "Once again, as usual, Clone attacks me with a stupid remark but doesn't give me the references to set up the meeting."

Okay, meet me in the park after dusk under the bridge near the old oak tree. Have all the recovered kids in an unmarked sack but be sure to include their initial DSMIV reports and complete medical histories. I'm sure you've spent enough time under the bridge to find it again.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't there some sort of media event where ARI and Lou Diamond Philips paraded a handful of "recovered" children around on a stage? Too bad they didn't have access to the same families you do or I'm sure they would have filled that whole stage.

You know, I saw a play the other night and there must have been a good 30 non-autistic people on the stage for the curtain call. There was no way to tell if any of them had "recovered."

 

At 1/31/2006 12:15 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

You know, I saw a play the other night and there must have been a good 30 non-autistic people on the stage for the curtain call. There was no way to tell if any of them had "recovered."

Yeah. As far as we know, they might have been misdiagnosed. Or faking. Or encouraged to fake by extroverted hypochondriac parents. Or they might have naturally recovered via hormones or something. Or worked with conventional treatments that did all the work. We could never know, since Fore Sam is insisting that we just take their word for it, instead of investigating chelation by removing other known explanations.

You know, I have a feeling that if we dug up a DBCT on chelation with negative results, Fore Sam would just hand-wave it away as "sophistry". Would you, Fore Sam?

 

At 1/31/2006 12:27 PM, Anonymous Kassiane said...

Y'all are STILL arguing that chelation cures autism??

I was chelated, for *real. mercury. poisoning.* You know, the kind you get when you're exposed to lots and lots of enviornmental mercury everywhere from the ground to your old school buildings' paint to your (not at all to code) apartment's paint for years and years and years. Tellin' you what, it takes a lot more than a shot to get the levels I had-and I be LITTLE.

And I am within normal range now. And I am STILL AUTISTIC. Flapping rocking spinning forgetting how to talk at times no eye contact autistic

The 2 kids I worked with whose parents had at least at one time beleived the mercury=autism fallacy are...ALSO STILL AUTISTIC. One is nonverbal, even. And they had to take a lot more pills than I did.

Then, of course, there's the kid who lost a kidney...and is still autistic too.

Learning to play NT isn't the same as BEING NT. You bet your behind that those so-called recovered kids also had training programs. And a lot of them will figure out when they're older that they've been hiding who they really are.

 

At 1/31/2006 12:37 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

I appreciate the negative anecdote, kassiane, since it will once again aid in demonstrating one of my points, and one of Fore Sam's fallacies:

I predict that double-standards will come in, and Fore Sam will hand-wave you away by suggesting either you're a lying part of the anti-chelation mafia or provide explanations for your non-recovery that negate the anecdote, without realizing that such arguments render his anecdotes equally moot.

 

At 1/31/2006 12:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I say EDTA causes autism. Can anyone prove it doesn't?
1) It's toxic (check the MSDS)
2) It's added to vaccines and hasn't been adequately tested for safety.
3) It's in many of the foods we eat.
4) It exacerbates autoimmunity in some strains of mice.
5) It inhibits certain enzymes and interferes with methylation pathways.
6) There are no recorded cases of autism before EDTA was invented
7) It damages the immune system.
8) Brain cells will die when exposed to EDTA in vitro.
9) I challenge anyone to inject an age and weight equivalent dose of EDTA in public (certain restrictions may apply)
10) Injecting children with a known neurotoxin is stupid!
11) Chlidren everywhere are improving and still living after not being injected with EDTA

 

At 1/31/2006 1:42 PM, Blogger Michelle said...

Orac, Thanks for the post. My chem course is talking about chelation this week, and this makes the point to them that these topics can be timely. Many of them had heard about chelation, very few knew how it worked to sequester metals in the body.

 

At 1/31/2006 2:23 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Kassiane didn't answer me the last time I asked her a question. I'd like to know if she used ALA and how long she chelated for, at what age she was poisoned and at what age she started chelating. The rest of you are just engaging in a bad comedy routine to escape answering why the medical profession is still poisoning babies with a drug (thimerosal) that was never properly tested for safety. Would you like to discuss the Amish, the Chinese, or the kids from Chicago who were never vaccinated and have no autism? Your evasiveness doesn't help the doctors who negligently poisoned babies and are now trying to cover it up with BS.

 

At 1/31/2006 3:15 PM, Blogger clone3g said...

Fore Siam,
First let me congratulate you on your new found restraint. I can see you are getting a little worked up but you've managed to avoid your usual expletive laced rebuttals. Nice work.

alpha-lipoic doesn't chelate mercury. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought we'd already established the existence of autism in China long before US vaccines were imported. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Quick question for you: How common is phenylketonuria amongst the Amish?

 

At 1/31/2006 3:44 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

ALA does chelate mercury. I don't know what PKU is and don't care. If there were a few cases of autism in China before 1999, so what. There are 5 million now thanks to thimerosal.
When have I used expletives on this blog?

 

At 1/31/2006 3:52 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

The rest of you are just engaging in a bad comedy routine to escape answering why the medical profession is still poisoning babies with a drug (thimerosal) that was never properly tested for safety.

You still haven't proven that the "poisoning" is taking place. Ever watch the episode of The Simpsons where Bart supposedly killed Skinner, and was about to go to prison, even though there was no evidence whatsoever that Skinner had even been murdered? Sorry. I'm not ready to send Bart off to jail until you have evidence that the crime was committed in the first place.

I suppose next you're going to ask why we're letting Bigfoot eat babies and kick puppies, even though we have no evidence of him engaging in that behavior.

As clone pointed out, the Chinese had autism beforehand, but you ignored him. I don't recall you even hand-waving him away with the magic "s" word.

I don't know about the Amish or the Chicago kids. Please enlighten me as to your source of information. I'm not going to take your word for it, since without cites, it could just be an urban legend. Whenever I search for it, all I bump into are people telling about how their second cousin who owned a dog previously owned by a doctor read about it somewhere. Primary sources, please.

 

At 1/31/2006 3:59 PM, Blogger Orac said...

I don't normally post during the day, but the constant stream of e-mail notifications popping up on my Gmail notifier that yet another fact-free comment from Fore Sam had been posted to this article irritated me to the point where I'm breaking my usual rule for myself.

I took care of the myth of autism rates in the Chicago practice that Olmsted propagates, and Prometheus discussed the Amish myth on his blog.

 

At 1/31/2006 4:07 PM, Blogger clone3g said...

Fore Sam: "ALA does chelate mercury"

Well if you say so. Just in case I'd rather not take your word for it, can you provide any science-like stuff to support that statement?

"I don't know what PKU is and don't care."

Actually, I said phenylketonuria, which can be abbreviated as PKU, so you must have cared enough to Google it. Did you also notice it is a known cause of autism?

 

At 1/31/2006 4:10 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Looks like those two things got pretty well shot down, unless Fore Sam feels like providing different sources, or a very good critique of those critiques.

I'll be sure to bookmark those links when I get home.

Oh, and Fore Sam, on the topic of China, care to link/reference us a primary source?

 

At 1/31/2006 4:33 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Orac claims his say so proves the Chicago doctors wrong and Prometheus has proven Olmstead's Amish question wrong. I guess that does it. I should just shut up and go away because this guy says I'm wrong. He doesn't answer the questions I asked about chelation and, of course, he doesn't have the guts to answer my claim that continuing to put mercury into babies is malpractice. He's just like the cops who defend their own no matter what they do. That's it Orac, let your colleagues keep poisoning infants and vouch for their good work. In the meantime, kids will keep being diagnosed with autism until their is no more mercury. When are you going to pay attention to that "Do No Harm" thing you must have heard about someplace in your education? All the fancy and illogical arguments you can muster won't change the fact that MERCURY HAS POISONED A GENERATION OF CHILDREN. Does that irritate you enough to amnswer all the parents of those kids who your colleagues screwed up on?
Whoever asked about ALA, go to Autism Mercury and let Andy Cutler shut you up.

 

At 1/31/2006 4:50 PM, Anonymous HCN said...

The fallacy of the China autism rates was pointed out to John Best posting as Fore Sam on Prometheus's blog: A Field Guide to Quackery and Pseudoscience – Part Two

This paper was cited: A cross-sectional study on prevalance and risk factors of disabilities in aged 0-6 years children in Beijing, China ... with this quote: "Compared with data from a countrywide study in 1987, the overall disability rate had a mild decrease (16.36%) with the most (56.85%) appeared in HL" ... they are claiming a DECREASE in disability rate!

There are also other paper cited, including papers from China about autism from 1982 on up. All before the mystical date of 1999.

 

At 1/31/2006 4:52 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Orac claims his say so proves the Chicago doctors wrong and Prometheus has proven Olmstead's Amish question wrong.

Are you high? We aren't talking about say-so. Did you not read the arguments? Do you have no counter-arguments? Can you spot no specific flaws? Hand-waving at its finest, or most depraved. Whatever.

He doesn't answer the questions I asked about chelation and, of course, he doesn't have the guts to answer my claim that continuing to put mercury into babies is malpractice.

We already established that those questions of yours are evasions of more fundamental questions.

He's just like the cops who defend their own no matter what they do.

You didn't even read any of his stuff, did you? You're making that accusation based solely on the fact that he disagrees with you, aren't you?

That's it Orac, let your colleagues keep poisoning infants and vouch for their good work.

And here you sit, ranting factlessly, doing nothing to show us the errors of his ways.

All the fancy and illogical arguments you can muster won't change the fact that MERCURY HAS POISONED A GENERATION OF CHILDREN.

And all your fancy, illogical just-so stories and shouting of faith can't change that your scare story is baseless. Why don't you stop acting like a scaremonger, and start doing some research?! I have said over and over, your sloth is what's convincing me you're wrong. If you really cared, you wouldn't be propagandizing. You'd be collecting data from primary sources.

Does that irritate you enough to amnswer all the parents of those kids who your colleagues screwed up on?

Prove that they were screwed up as a result of those actions! You're so thirsty for blood, you don't even care to present evidence of wrongdoing.

 

At 1/31/2006 5:04 PM, Anonymous Kassiane said...

Actually, ForeChelation, I TRIED to answer. I'm new to this blog posting thing.

I was 23. Used DMSA and several reccomended supplements, among them MSM, alpha lipolic acid, trace minerals (bet you didn't know about that one), and a diet high in cilantro and onions. DMSA came from cilantro, after all.

"Age of poisoning"...read what I said. I grew up where mercury is all over the place. Ages very young-22 I suppose. That's a mighty long time, now isn't it? Yet...I didn't hit symptomatic till 22. Read the symptoms of mercury poisoning. Note the mood swings, neuropathy, red rash, pain, fatigue. Uh-huh. Thank you. That's what I had, and what being clean (cleaner than most NTs. Everyone has mercury. another one that should be "duh") eliminated.

And again, none of those so called recovered kids weren't also getting training on how to pretend to be NT--I beleive they call it ABA. Yeah. It's not real NT, and chelation is only appropriate for actual metal toxicity.

 

At 1/31/2006 5:10 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Speaking of actual metal toxicity, we still haven't heard which kind of "mercury" Fore Sam is talking about. I suspect he includes thimerasol as "mercury" when he talks about injections, but when he talks about the microgram safe limit, he's talking about Hg+. Funny when you can make one word mean two completely different things.

 

At 1/31/2006 5:46 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Kassiane; How long did you chelate? Did you use ALA every 3 hours for at least 3 days and then take 11 days off? It takes more than one weekend for it do you any good. If you're still autistic, you're not mercury free. If you think lots of brain cells were killed (as is evident to me) maybe you should also try HBOT.

 

At 1/31/2006 5:50 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Bronze Mutt;
Evidence that they screwed up is right there in front of you. They decided to take mercury out of vaccines in 1999. Then they added the flu vaccine with mercury in it. They knew it would harm kids. There are still vaccines on the shelves with expiration dates of 2008.

 

At 1/31/2006 6:00 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Funny. You assume from the outset that mercury is caused by autism, and you conclude that because someone is still autistic, that someone still has mercury in the system.

Cartesian circle, anyone? Remember, Fore Sam, we're trying to remain open-minded. Circular thinking is inherently closed.

How about this, Fore Sam: Ask for how the mercury was measured, and when it was last measured. That will let us know if the mercury was removed. If it was removed, doesn't that blow a(nother) hole in your hypothesis?

 

At 1/31/2006 6:06 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Bronze Mutt;
Evidence that they screwed up is right there in front of you.


If you know where it is, why can't you cite it?

They decided to take mercury out of vaccines in 1999.

There's that equivocated word, again. I wasn't aware of any vaccines with Hg+ in them. Thimerasol, maybe, but, of course, that was likely removed because of scaremongers generating irrational fears of vaccination.

Then they added the flu vaccine with mercury in it. They knew it would harm kids.

How did they know? How do you know? Cites, please. Primary sources, please. I'm not just going to take your word for it, especially considering your repeat evasions of that simple request. You can't just declare it unquestionable dogma. I'm questioning that positive assertion, and you just shout it louder and louder, expecting me to back down.

 

At 1/31/2006 6:29 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Bronze Mutt;
How about this, Fore Sam: Ask for how the mercury was measured, and when it was last measured. That will let us know if the mercury was removed. If it was removed, doesn't that blow a(nother) hole in your hypothesis?
If she didn't use ALA for some uncertain time the mercury is still in her brain since nothing else gets mercury past the blood brain barrier. I asked her previously about a blood test but she didn't answer. Maybe some MD just told her it was gone. The mercury might be gone and her missing brain cells may account for her condition which would no longer be autism but some other diminished mental capacity.
How do we know that the drug companies knew that mercury (contained in thimerosal) was causing autism? They said so at Simpsonwood when they stated they would keep selling it anyhow.
Does POrac pay you guys to keep attacking me with inanities so he can avoid answering questions?

 

At 1/31/2006 6:36 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

They said so at Simpsonwood when they stated they would keep selling it anyhow.

How about you link me directly to the Simpsonwood document? I doubt it says what you say it says.

[Tu_Quoque]

Does Big Pharma pay you to hurl out inanities to make all chelation advocates look silly?

[/Tu_Quoque]

 

At 1/31/2006 6:56 PM, Blogger Bartholomew Cubbins said...

Fore Sam,

I'd like to shift gears and congratulate you. You represent the mercury-autism proponents and the anti-vaccination proponents quite well. They owe you a huge thanks, after all, you've clearly stated their case, you've demonstated a firm grasp on the science of neuro-immunology and neurodevelopment, you continue to display a command of the current literature, you have gained control of the "sophistry keyboard reflex", you make an effort to foster discussion rather than quelching it, and your purpose is quite clearly benevolent.

Everyone in Generation Rescue ought to be thanking their lucky stars that you're really bored right now.

This message brought to you by the committee for truth and justice.

 

At 1/31/2006 8:10 PM, Anonymous Kassiane said...

Foresam probes into my life: Kassiane; How long did you chelate?

Long enough to satisfy my REAL DOCTOR. One who is BOARD ELIGIBLE.

Did you use ALA every 3 hours for at least 3 days and then take 11 days off?

Any doctor who knows diddlysnot about *real mercury poisoning* knows that isn't how it works. Read a PI sheet on DMSA sometime. If you're up for that level of reading. Note the reccomended indications (autism isn't on there, and for good reason) and dosing.

As for ALA, it has uses other than making angry parents think they're fixing the children they see as defective, and neither my medication nor supplement regimens are any of your business.

It takes more than one weekend for it do you any good.

Well, duh.

If you're still autistic, you're not mercury free.

Would you stake your life on it? I might even have less mercury than you.

If you think lots of brain cells were killed (as is e
evident to me) maybe you should also try HBOT.


Oh. He went there.

*smiles sweetly. Very sweetly* Want to compare IQ scores? Bet mine's higher.

Besides which, such insults prove that you have nothing to offer BUT insults, and...oh wait...therefore again proved my intellectual superiority. Oops.

And HBOT is seriously contraindicated in those with seizure disorders, just so you're aware (hence the hyperventilation provocation test in every routine EEG). I assume you're aware of the seizure percentage in autistic people, and you know that absence seizures aren't often noticed. Right? Right?

I mean, what is this, 3rd grade? Insult them enough and they'll stop telling you that you're full of it? Bet you're older than me too, but one can't tell from how you attempt to argue with those who think you're wrong...

 

At 1/31/2006 11:17 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Kassiane;
I see you had way too many brain cells killed to recognize when someone is asking questions to help you and not to pry into anything about you. Smile sweetly as much as you like with your two digit IQ. Your first mistake was listening to doctors who don't have a clue how to treat mercury poisoning that has resulted in autism. I've learned enough about chelation to watch my son improve dramatically with no help from any doctors. I don't like seeing anyone suffer with autism. If you want to reconsider your snotty attitude, I'll give you the information you need to help yourself. Better yet, have your parents contact me, your too incapacitated to be reasoned with.

 

At 1/31/2006 11:41 PM, Blogger Orac said...

Alright, things are getting out of hand here. Any more insults like that from Fore Sam (or anyone else), and I do one of two things. I either shut the comments down for this post or I turn on comment moderation and ruthlessly reject posts that have any sort of personal insults in them. I don't want to do either, but neither will I allow the discussion to degenerate into a flamefest.

 

At 1/31/2006 11:53 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Your first mistake was listening to doctors who don't have a clue how to treat mercury poisoning that has resulted in autism.

Where's your evidence that such poisoning occurs?

Sixty-two thousand four hundred repetitions do not make one truth.

 

At 2/01/2006 7:51 AM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

BronzeDog;
Mark Geier gave us the proof in 2003. He said more needed to be done but the CDC hid the data and won't let him have access to any more. The proof is also in my house with my kid who was 100% normal until he was 10 months old. Now that mercury is being removed, he's inching closer to that normalcy.
Orac;
Good chastising but not very good answering of questions.

 

At 2/01/2006 8:58 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Mark Geier gave us the proof in 2003. He said more needed to be done but the CDC hid the data and won't let him have access to any more. The proof is also in my house with my kid who was 100% normal until he was 10 months old. Now that mercury is being removed, he's inching closer to that normalcy.

1. So, the evidence is there, but it's hidden? Just like the government coverup of aliens: The evidence is out there, but the aliens and Men in Black are covering it ALL up. Direct references, please.

2. And we're back to your unverifiable, uncontrolled, unblinded just-so story vs. an equally non-valid negative anecdote. For me to accept your story on face value would require me to adopt double-standards, one of them known as "appeal to elitism."

3. Do you know why I reject unverifiable, uncontrolled, unblinded studies of one individual?

4. Do you know why I insist on double-blind control studies or controlled statistical analysis?

 

At 2/01/2006 9:22 AM, Blogger Kev said...

x-posted to Prom's blog:

You can't reason with John - its simply not possible as he is incapable. Everytime you point out the many flaws in his logic he simply moves on to the next point. Foil him again and again he moves. Eventually you end up back at the same point you started with and you realise you just wasted several online hours in a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

For example. John believes that autism was invented in the 1930's by Eli Lily in the form of thiomersal. Documented proof of autistics from Victorian Britian fail to sway him.

John also claims his son is improving in areas such as head-banging, control over his legs, counting. Unfortunately he fails to indicate where on the diagnostic criteria for autism these things appear. We know they don't and hence we know he's irrelvancy personified.

You can't argue with John, all you can do is try not to legitamise his points by treating them as worthy of a response.

I ended up having to ban John from my blog as he simply grew more and more abusive - in the end he was just ranting. I was surprised that a man like John could say even less than he already was, but he was.

 

At 2/01/2006 9:24 AM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Bronze Dog;
Let me guess why you call me a liar. Is it because you're a doctor and want to cover up the harm your colleagues have done to thousands of infants? Is it because you work for a drug company that has reaped huge profits from thimerosal laced vaccines and wants to avoid billions in lawsuits? Maybe you're a Congressman and don't want to see your bribery income slip when Eli Lilly at al are put out of business. Could it be you like paying about $100,000 per year for education and other expenses incurred by autistic kids with your taxes? No, it couldn't be any of those reasons. I got it! You were taught in school to only accept DBC studies and you don't have the common sense to look at any other evidence.

 

At 2/01/2006 9:48 AM, Blogger notmercury said...

John,
My child seemed perfectly normal and typical in every way but regressed in to autism right after receiving several scheduled vaccines. I was convinced vaccines caused autism and I, like you, associated and listened to other like-minded parents and anti-vax groups.

My second child is completely unvaccinated and regressed right around the same time as my first child. Needless to say, it wasn't the vaccines in this case but I know how easy it is to believe in something so completely only to learn you are mistaken.

I realize this is only an unverifiable anecdote and I'm sure you will suggest other means of mercury exposure, but the point I'm trying to make is this: I was wrong!

It is entirely possible, and very probable, you and many of the other mercury moms and dads are also wrong.

 

At 2/01/2006 10:25 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fore Sam (John):

You are all alone arguing your points here. Where's your hero, JB Handley? He has disappeared - not even bothering to defend HIS hero Dr. Buttar when it was suggested that Buttar has moved to IV chelation. Where are the hundreds of other parents who have cured their child with chelation? If there are so many of these people, why don't you put out a call to them and get them to come in here and argue your case with some more logic? You are losing here - anyone can see that.

 

At 2/01/2006 11:23 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Let me guess why you call me a liar.

First off, stop changing the subject from the argument from the arguer. I've already demonstrated how that tactic could be easily reverse: You could just as easily be a Big Pharma shill trying to use evasions to make me perform an argument from silence.

Second: I never called you a liar.

You were taught in school to only accept DBC studies and you don't have the common sense to look at any other evidence.

I'm willing to listen to reasons to accept other "evidence", except you won't give me any.

Why should I accept your uncontrolled, unblinded, unverifiable anecdote?

You've never answered that question.

Why should I not accept the opposing uncontrolled, unblinded, unverifiable anecdotes?

You've never answered that question.

I refuse to change my standards for no reason.

 

At 2/01/2006 11:29 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

And, yes, Kev, I realize Fore Sam/John Best is immune to arguments, thanks to his unfalsifiable circular premisclusions. He's too closed-minded and cynical to consider the possibility that he's wrong, or that his "evidence" isn't what he thinks it is. I'm trying to do this for the sake of any fence-sitters who may be watching, as well as, I confess, my own personal entertainment.

 

At 2/01/2006 11:36 AM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Bronze Dog;
You refuse to answer my questions. Are you a doctor, drug co. employee or politician of any ilk?
You should accept my unscientific evidence because that is all we have available and the kids need help NOW. They can't wait 40 years for all the doctors who poisoned them to die before the medical profession will admit they made a mistake.

 

At 2/01/2006 12:12 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

You refuse to answer my questions. Are you a doctor, drug co. employee or politician of any ilk?

I refuse to answer that question because it's a subject change and a genetic fallacy. My background is unimportant. My arguments are. Stop putting up this smoke screen of suspicion and innuendo. If I were to answer it, I'd be giving into the game of "You're a Communist! No, YOU'RE a Communist!"

Example:

[Tu_Quoque]

Are you a chelating quack? Can you prove that you aren't one? Do you have stock in chelating companies?

[/Tu_Quoque]

That's why I'm trying to cut to the meat of the issue: "Does mercury/mercury cations/thimerasol cause autism?"

You should accept my unscientific evidence because that is all we have available and the kids need help NOW. They can't wait 40 years for all the doctors who poisoned them to die before the medical profession will admit they made a mistake.

1. "Unscientific evidence" is an oxymoron. And if I accepted your standards of "evidence", I would have to equally accept the exact opposite "evidence" from skeptical anecdotes because otherwise, quacks will be bilking desperate people out of their time, money, blood, sweat, and tears while said resources could be better spent on scientific studies that would help us find the real answer because that answer can't wait.

2. I've seen people use that same argument for fake Y2K fixes, pyramid scandals, chemical scares for harmless chemicals, the war on Iraq, Vietnam, and so forth. Just because someone makes up a threat ex nihilo doesn't mean that we should respond to it. How would you react to someone bursting into your home and telling you to put on a tinfoil hat to protect you from aliens who are going to explode your head?

 

At 2/01/2006 12:17 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Anonymous;
You wouldn't make a good umpire. I've already won this debate by virtue of the fact that all the people here just dance around my questions and statements. They refuse to even address the tough questions except for Bronze Dog who just keeps crying DBCS over and over. When I ask Orac a question, he only answers the easy ones. He answers with evasion rather than fact. The fact of the matter is that mercury contained in thimerosal has poisoned a generation of children. The sad part of this is that even those who are mercury poisoned and suffering from Asperger's believe the lie that it hasn't been proven and aren't curing themselves. It's all about profit and profit is harming kids by poisoning more of them and keeping them autistic rather than helping them.
The thing you don't get, Anonymous, is that one who speaks the truth can not possibly lose a debate to those who try to hide the truth. My son is recovering because I know the truth. Nothing anyone here can say can change that fact. All you can do is try to "stonewall" the truth. That only works with those who don't already know the truth.

 

At 2/01/2006 12:35 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

They refuse to even address the tough questions except for Bronze Dog who just keeps crying DBCS over and over.

Riiiiight. Tough questions that are completely off-topic and irrelevant, or worse, assume something that he fails to even show interest in proving.

Tough question for Fore Sam:

What is the basis of your asking for special pleading in favor of your anecdotes, and against skeptical anecdotes?

 

At 2/01/2006 12:44 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

The sad part of this is that even those who are mercury poisoned and suffering from Asperger's believe the lie that it hasn't been proven and aren't curing themselves.

Once again, you're presuming your conclusion. You haven't done a thing to show us that those people can be cured by chelation, other than asking for us to take your anecdotes on faith, and reject skeptical anecdotes on the same faith.

It's all about profit and profit is harming kids by poisoning more of them and keeping them autistic rather than helping them.

If it were all about profit, doctors wouldn't waste time with evidence and studies. They'd go into the pure profit margin industry of homeopathy.

Oh, and, of course, that's appeal to motivation, and easily reversed because I can just as easily claim that Fore Sam is in the pocket of the chelators.

Anonymous, is that one who speaks the truth can not possibly lose a debate to those who try to hide the truth. My son is recovering because I know the truth. Nothing anyone here can say can change that fact. All you can do is try to "stonewall" the truth. That only works with those who don't already know the truth.

Because, we all know, Fore Sam's word is the ultimate arbiter of truth because he said so.

So, if you KNOW you have the truth, why are you seem so opposed to performing/looking for/providing us with a DBCS?

 

At 2/01/2006 12:47 PM, Anonymous Kassiane said...

I see you had way too many brain cells killed to recognize when someone is asking questions to help you and not to pry into anything about you.

I get medical advice from real doctors. Not people on the internet who insult me. And yes, condescension is a form of insult.

Foresam insulted, again:Smile sweetly as much as you like with your two digit IQ.

Try 176. Yes. 176. Three digits. uh-huh. Ok now. And you might want to see the stuff I've written before you insult my intellegence again. There aren't that many Kassianes out there.

Your first mistake was listening to doctors who don't have a clue how to treat mercury poisoning that has resulted in autism.

Ready for a shocker? Mercury doesn't cause autism. Here's another one. My autism=genetic. Yep. Genetic. And shocker number 3: I'd rather be the autistic me than NT. No question about it.

I've learned enough about chelation to watch my son improve dramatically with no help from any doctors.

I know the names, mechanisms of action, dosing schedules, and seizure type usage for nearly every antiepileptic in America-does this make me able to treat epilepsy? Because if it does, I should be a lot richer than I am. Reading on the internet does not a medical professional make.

I don't like seeing anyone suffer with autism.

I don't suffer from autism. I suffer from NTs and their attitudes about autism.

If you want to reconsider your snotty attitude, I'll give you the information you need to help yourself. Better yet, have your parents contact me, your too incapacitated to be reasoned with.

1. *My* snotty attitude? Mr Pot, I'd like to introduce you to this Kettle over here.
2. I prefer to get my medical advice from people with specific training, thanks. I like my kidneys where they are.
3. I haven't talked to my parents in over a year. Try again.

 

At 2/01/2006 12:52 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Bronze Dog;
I'm not hiding anything. Ask me anything you like. It's a simple question but a relevant one; are you an MD, political type or drug co. employee? It's within your rights to plead the fifth but that does tend to arouse suspicion.

 

At 2/01/2006 1:01 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Kassiane; I'm sorry to hear about your low IQ. You would lose your proposed wager.
You must be splitting hairs to make the mercury doesn't cause autism statement since some like to differentiate between autism and mercury poisoning, perhaps rightfully so. However, mercury does cause the condition that is mistakenly diagnosed as autism. That explains why removing the mercury cures some children so affected. Please use your 176 IQ to conjer up some other explanation as to why chelation cures children.
Didn't you claim you became autistic in your 20's? How could that be genetic?

 

At 2/01/2006 1:16 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

I'm not hiding anything. Ask me anything you like. It's a simple question but a relevant one; are you an MD, political type or drug co. employee? It's within your rights to plead the fifth but that does tend to arouse suspicion.

I'm not hiding anything. I'm exposing your efforts to change the subject to something that's completely irrelevant.

If you want to dispute, why would my hypothetical stakes change the nature of my arguments? A valid argument is a valid argument, regardless of who says it.

[Humor with a very basic point that Fore Sam can't seem to grasp.]

Fry: "You can't keep going out with him. He only likes you for your appearance."

Leela: "Oh, you're just jealous."

Fry: "No, I'm not! Oh, wait... Yes I am, but my point remains valid!"

[/Humor]

Drop the accusatory smoke screen, Fore Sam. No one's biting. It isn't relevant who I am. You're still failing to prove your case.

 

At 2/01/2006 1:20 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Please use your 176 IQ to conjer up some other explanation as to why chelation cures children.

It doesn't.

 

At 2/01/2006 1:26 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ForeSam (John)

Again, I ask, where are all these kids "cured" by chelation? Your child isn't one of them. Neither is JB Handley's. Even your own source of information

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/

in its FAQ states:

"Q: Has anyone actually "cured" their autistic child by chelating them?

The book "Turning Lead Into Gold" describes several cases of children with "autistic tendencies" who improved dramatically after chelation for lead. As of this writing, no one on this list has completely cured their child from mercury poisoning. But its early yet. Dr. Amy is getting some wonderful results with the children in her practice, and numerous parents have reported improvements in their autistic children with each chelation cycle."

That yahoo group has been in existence since the year 2000. That's SIX years of kids being chelated. Where are all those cured kids if this is such an obvious truth? Have you ever even seen one parent claiming "cure" on autism-mercury?

John, what would it take to make you change your mind? What if the rate of autism in California stays high for ten more years? What if the University of Arizona chelation study shows chelation to be ineffective? What if your own child is not cured? Or will you just move on to another reason why vaccines must cause autism?

 

At 2/01/2006 1:31 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Didn't Denmark ban thimerasol, too? Last time I checked, their autism rate is exactly the same. If thimerasol (which is not "mercury" for the same reason table salt isn't "chlorine") was a cause, you'd expect it to go down.

 

At 2/01/2006 2:01 PM, Anonymous Kassiane said...

Kassiane; I'm sorry to hear about your low IQ. You would lose your proposed wager.

1. 176 is a high IQ. I'm sorry you don't know enough math to do that.
2. Where's your proof? Prove it prove it prove it. I'm not taking ANYTHING you say on faith.

You must be splitting hairs to make the mercury doesn't cause autism statement since some like to differentiate between autism and mercury poisoning, perhaps rightfully so. However, mercury does cause the condition that is mistakenly diagnosed as autism. That explains why removing the mercury cures some children so affected.

PROVE IT. Not anecdotes. PROOF. In a peer reviewed SCIENTIFIC journal

Please use your 176 IQ to conjer up some other explanation as to why chelation cures children.

It doesnt cure anything but lead poisoning, seeing as most kids aren't exposed to toxic amounts of any other metal. I don't beleive you have any "cured" autistic kids around. And of course there's natural improvement. And school intervention. None of which is chelation.

Didn't you claim you became autistic in your 20's?

Nooooo...read, man, read! I was diagnosed the first time when I was 3. In 1986.

How could that be genetic?

Well you see, a mommy and a daddy pass to their babies GENES. And if mommy or daddy is autistic, it increases the chance their child will inherit it. I have an autistic parent.
Then of course there's the identified genes...there's 5 or 6 now. Maybe I have at least one. Maybe I don't. Is it your business? Not with the way you talk to me.

 

At 2/01/2006 2:02 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

I was wrong: Autism went up after the thimerasol ban.

Probably should have brought that up long, long ago.

 

At 2/01/2006 2:16 PM, Anonymous HCN said...

It has also been mentioned several times a fact that goes over the head of John Best posting as Fore Sam... chelation for real heavy metal poisoning does reverse neurological damage, it only prevent further damage. As noted in the several studies on chelation of children available on PubMed, including this one: Mercury Poisoning in Twin Girls ... which had this sentence "Over the 8 weeks in hospital they showed some minor neurocognitive improvements, but their long-term prognosis is uncertain."

Also, I want to know if there are accusations of "someone getting doing this for financial gain" why Boyd Haley (AltCorp) and Rashid Buttar are exempt from this accusation? Is it because they cater to the needs of the true believers? The same goes for the Geiers and their business MedCon, which is a business paid for by lawyers to support their lawsuits (much like how Andrew Wakefield was paid for his MMR "results").

For some strange reason the Public Health department is "bad" for trying to keep a well immunized population for its herd immunity... but guys like Bradstreet, Fudenburg, Haley and Buttar are "good" for selling their unproven "cures".

 

At 2/01/2006 3:17 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Kassiane;
You state that chelation only cures lead poisoning. Orac has stated that chelation is the proper treatment for mercury poisoning. He just won't admit that autism is mercury poisoning.
As for your 176 being high, that's all relative. It's low to me while it may sound high to George W Bush.
You seem to suffer from the same addiction as Bronze Dog. The only proof you want to accept has to be in a scientific journal. Not all proof finds its way into those publications, especially when those publications are subsidized by the industry that poisons babies for profit. It boggles the mind how people suffering from autism and Asperger's can accept this "junk science" that claims an overdose of a neurotoxin can't cause problems. You would be so much better off if you learned from those of us who accept true science that isn't biased by profit and is curing children. You claim you don't want to be cured but you don't know what normal is like. It's better than having mercury rotting your brain and causing you to live with a diagnosis of autism. Perhaps your 176 would increase to 190 without that mercury in your head.

 

At 2/01/2006 3:28 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

HCN;
The neurological damage caused by mercury can be undone because it does not simply kill brain cells. It interferes with methylation so that the body can't produce methyl B-12. That's why many children begin talking soon after being treated with methyl B-12. Once the mercury is gone, they can make their own methyl B-12.
I don't have time to read the piece about the twins right now but 8 weeks is hardly sufficient to remove the mercury from the brain.
I'm sure some are making a buck treating autism. Andy Cutler hasn't charged me a dime and the stuff I use to treat my kid costs about $30 a month. I think his protocol makes more sense than those prescribed by some MD's who charge a few hundred for an hour of their time. Somebody tried to sell me Audio Integration Therapy for an outrageous price and I think they are ripping people off. I don't argue that some sharks try to prey on us but Cutler isn't one of them. I don't personally pay any attention to Buttar.

 

At 2/01/2006 3:29 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

You seem to suffer from the same addiction as Bronze Dog. The only proof you want to accept has to be in a scientific journal. Not all proof finds its way into those publications, especially when those publications are subsidized by the industry that poisons babies for profit.

Funny how you call it an addiction. It's a necessity: Evidence is a necessity to make conclusions. You have none, published in peer-review journals or otherwise. All you have is this one anecdote you want us to accept on the faith that it's superior to our negative anecdotes.

On the topic of IQ, isn't 160 considered "Genius" level?

It boggles the mind how people suffering from autism and Asperger's can accept this "junk science" that claims an overdose of a neurotoxin can't cause problems.

Prove that thimerasol is a neurotoxin. Prove that there's an overdose. Why are you so silent on those requests?

You would be so much better off if you learned from those of us who accept true science that isn't biased by profit and is curing children.

Pot. Kettle. Black. You're just as potentially guilty as HCN points out. That's why we prefer a process of peer review designed to filter out commercial interest. You have no such methods of filtering out your biases. You expect us to take it on faith that your interpretation of this unverifiable anecdote of yours is perfect and objective.

You claim you don't want to be cured but you don't know what normal is like.

I'm sure I don't know what it's like to be [insert sexuality, race, social clique], but I like the way I am.

And please address the link I posted on Denmark.

 

At 2/01/2006 3:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ForeSam,

Chelation may reduce the level of lead in the blood, but it does NOT improve cognition (the biggest problem with lead poisoning).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12359796&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

So, chelation does not even cure the most tragic part of lead poisoning. There's no reason to assume it can cause improved cognition in autism either.

 

At 2/01/2006 3:50 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Anon's link for easier clicking.

 

At 2/01/2006 4:24 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

BD;
Denmark- The study began counting autistics who were not institutionalized. They were not previously counted.
Why do you keep asking the same question about thimerosal? The CDC says one microgram is safe. HepB had 12.5, DTP had 25, Hib had 25, polio had 25. Thimerosal is 49.6% mercury. What else do you need to see that those doses equal an overdose?
Who cares what number equals genius? IQ is only a measure of potential so it really doesn't mean much.
You claim publishing in journals is a necessity. So, what do you do when those journals have an axe to grind to prevent certain knowledge from becoming widely learned? Thimerosal poisoning will be recorded in history as the most despicable crime in the history of the planet. You just keep trying to cover it up while you refuse to answer my questions about your employment. Your scientific journals don't tell the whole story of this crime of negligence with the associated coverup. The "big picture" can't be ignored in discussing this subject but you're making a good effort to avoid it. You might even fool some people.

 

At 2/01/2006 4:28 PM, Anonymous Kassiane said...

Fore Sam, you really need to learn to read.

The vast majority of children aren't exposed to toxic metals other than lead. Hence, lead chelation.

If one actually IS mercury toxic, then, clearly, chelation will fix that. BUT. Mercury toxicity isn't autism. No where in any diagnostic criteria for autism do I see rash, neuropathy, et cetera.

And yes, Bronze Dog, 160 is genius level. This is why I have trouble believing Fore Sam comes close to the 170-180 range. The lack of logic. The lack of understanding scientific journals, or why science is NECESSARY. The continuous insults instead of a real debate. Et cetera.

Anyone on the internet can say they're brilliant. *shrugs*. I've got my test scores, and college entry test scores. But everyone should take me on faith, right?

 

At 2/01/2006 4:43 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

You claim publishing in journals is a necessity. So, what do you do when those journals have an axe to grind to prevent certain knowledge from becoming widely learned? Your scientific journals don't tell the whole story of this crime of negligence with the associated coverup. The "big picture" can't be ignored in discussing this subject but you're making a good effort to avoid it. You might even fool some people.

Tell me how the "big picture" of your unfalsifiable, cynical la-la-land becomes relevant. Tell me how it infiltrates the peer review process, alters the results of placebo-controlled studies, silences ALL the legitimate criticism of the flawed/fabricated studies in ALL nations across the world AND silences ALL people across the entire planet who want to conduct DBCSs on chelation as treatment for autism.

Denmark- The study began counting autistics who were not institutionalized. They were not previously counted.

When did they begin this counting of non-institutionalized autistics? Would you like to bring up a study that does a better job of counting autistics?

 

At 2/01/2006 7:29 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

BD;
Once again, you opted to ignore my question qabout your employment.

 

At 2/01/2006 7:39 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Kassiane; You claim the vast majority are only exposed to lead. All kids vaccinated before 2000 got mercury. Don't you consider mercury toxic? Most kids who get the flu shot get mercury. In third world countries, they all still get mercury. Mercury poisoning and autism are the same thing.
Not all people with high IQ's choose to study science. Some of us study horses.

 

At 2/01/2006 8:15 PM, Anonymous Gray Falcon said...

Time for a basic chemistry lesson:

Sodium metal: Highly reactive, especially with water. Human body is 60% water.

Chlorine gas: Deadly to humans, used as a weapon in the first World War.

Sodium chloride: Contains about 50% sodium, 50% chlorine (depending on how you define your terms). Also known as table salt.

Moral: Just because a compound contains a toxic element doesn't automatically make it toxic by composition. I learned this in my first week of high school chemistry.

 

At 2/01/2006 8:35 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sulfuric acid (aka battery acid) Highly corrosive liquid, removes flesh from bone.

Barium: Extremely toxic metal, given the choice I would gladly hold mercury in my hand long before barium.

Combined: Barium Sulfate. Doctors instruct patients to ingest large quantities every day apparently without harm.

 

At 2/01/2006 9:01 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...



Kassiane; You claim the vast majority are only exposed to lead. All kids vaccinated before 2000 got mercury. Don't you consider mercury toxic? Most kids who get the flu shot get mercury. In third world countries, they all still get mercury. Mercury poisoning and autism are the same thing.
Not all people with high IQ's choose to study science. Some of us study horses.


Technique of Propaganda Generation: Intentional vagueness: Generalities are deliberately vague so that the audience may supply its own interpretations. The intention is to move the audience by use of undefined phrases, without analyzing their validity or attempting to determine their reasonableness or application. The intent is to cause people to draw their own interpretations rather than simply being presented with an explicit idea. In trying to "figure out" the propaganda, the audience foregoes judgment of the ideas presented. Their validity, reasonableness and application is not considered.

Why don't you just give us the definition of "mercury" you're using, Fore Sam? Is it that hard?

 

At 2/01/2006 10:08 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Bronze Dog;
I think you are well aware that the mercury I'm talking about is that which is contained in thimerosal. Now, about your employment, what are you afraid of?

 

At 2/01/2006 10:23 PM, Blogger Orac said...

Fore Sam clearly is pulling the Pharma Shill gambit.

 

At 2/01/2006 11:29 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Orac;
I expected better out of you. One way to avoid answering questions is to attack the person asking the questions.

 

At 2/02/2006 5:36 AM, Blogger Kev said...

"One way to avoid answering questions is to attack the person asking the questions."

Irony...just...too...great......I cannae hold her Captain!!!!

 

At 2/02/2006 6:50 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

We know that Kev's way of dealing with difficult questions is to put his tail between his legs and delete the post.

 

At 2/02/2006 6:51 AM, Blogger Orac said...

Yeah, Fore Sam just caused my Irony Meter to short circuit. I ought to send him the bill for a new one.

 

At 2/02/2006 8:53 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

I think you are well aware that the mercury I'm talking about is that which is contained in thimerosal. Now, about your employment, what are you afraid of?

1. The explosive metal sodium and poisonous gas chlorine is contained in table salt. The explosive gas hydrogen is contained in water. You need to go back to sixth grade physical science. Compounds are different than their elements. Any child should know that.

2. Once again you try to distract us from the fact that you only have one sloppily gathered data point by changing the subject to me. You can evade, distract, and accuse all you like, but nothing is going to change the fact that you have no reliable evidence.

3. McCarthy tried to distract people from legitimate criticism by hinting that all his critics were Communists. Witch hunters distracted people from legitimate criticism by accusing all their critics of witchcraft. How is that any different than what you're doing?

 

At 2/02/2006 8:58 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Oh, and I almost forgot:

Technique of Propaganda Generation: Obtain disapproval: This technique is used to persuade a target audience to disapprove of an action or idea by suggesting that the idea is popular with groups hated, feared, or held in contempt by the target audience. Thus if a group which supports a certain policy is led to believe that undesirable, subversive, or contemptible people support the same policy, then the members of the group may decide to change their original position.

 

At 2/02/2006 10:56 AM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Bronze Dog;
Since you're so knowledgeable about chemical interactions, please describe how the HepB vaccine changes the properties of the mercury that preserves it. Does the HepB part make the mercury more or less dangerous to children's brains? While you're at it, please tell us what testosterone does to mercury when introduced to babies' brains. Then, will you enlighten us about your employment?

 

At 2/02/2006 11:29 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Since you're so knowledgeable about chemical interactions, please describe how the HepB vaccine changes the properties of the mercury that preserves it. Does the HepB part make the mercury more or less dangerous to children's brains?

The elements bonded to the mercury atom/ion in thimerasol molecules are, like most chemical bonds, probably much more energy efficient than mercury by itself in liquid metalic form or in aqueous ionic form. It probably takes a lot of energy to break that bond. Didn't you study this in sixth grade public school?

If you'd like to show me otherwise, please show me a chemical reaction that separates mercury atoms from thimerasol molecules. And if you please, calculate the energy needed.

Then, will you enlighten us about your employment?

No, I have not, nor have I ever been a member of the Communist Party. And even if I was a member of the Communist Party, that won't change the fact that you don't have any evidence. It won't change the energy of formation for thimerasol, either.

Technique of Propaganda Generation:
Obtain disapproval: This technique is used to persuade a target audience to disapprove of an action or idea by suggesting that the idea is popular with groups hated, feared, or held in contempt by the target audience. Thus if a group which supports a certain policy is led to believe that undesirable, subversive, or contemptible people support the same policy, then the members of the group may decide to change their original position.

 

At 2/02/2006 11:45 AM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Bronze Dog can't answer my questions about mercury. From his constant harping on me, I figured he must know some science. He still would rather tap dance than answer questions about his employment. I can only wonder if he uses a can or a wicker basket for people to toss quarters at him while he's performing.

 

At 2/02/2006 11:54 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Bronze Dog can't answer my questions about mercury.

Did you just not read what I typed?

He still would rather tap dance than answer questions about his employment.

When you tell me how my employment changes the energy of formation (not to mention the laws of physics) of thimerasol, or changes the fact that you only have one sloppy data point, I'll tell you. Until then, my employment is irrelevant, because it has nothing to do with the topic of discussion: Data.

I can only wonder if he uses a can or a wicker basket for people to toss quarters at him while he's performing.

I do this volunteer charity work for free.

 

At 2/02/2006 12:07 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

One question I'd like you to stop running away from: How does the mercury atom/ion get out of the thimerasol molecule? If you can't answer that, it means you have no idea how thimerasol could cause mercury poisoning.

 

At 2/02/2006 12:24 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

BD;
Your reference to mercury and thimerosal had a "probably" in it. That doesn't sound like sound science to me. So, about that employment of yours?

 

At 2/02/2006 12:28 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Your reference to mercury and thimerosal had a "probably" in it. That doesn't sound like sound science to me.

Sound science is all about "probably". Unlike your world, there is no certainty. It's been a while since I've looked at a chemical bond table, but I'm pretty sure the chemical bonds involved are energy efficient, and thus unlikely to break.

So, why can't you tell me how the mercury escapes from the thimerasol molecule? Why can't you answer one of the questions that your claim is founded upon?

So, about that employment of yours?

How does my employment change your absence of evidence? How does my employment change the laws of physics?

 

At 2/02/2006 12:57 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

I did a quick google search. I can't find anyone who's posted a method for turning C9H9HgO2SNa into Hg2+ (Seems I forgot that mercury cations have a charge of 2+, instead of 1+. Oh, well. Doesn't change my arguments.)

So, please educated me, Fore Sam. Fill in the blanks:

C9H9HgO2SNa + (insert other chemicals to react with) +/- (insert number of joules of energy) -> Hg2+ + (other products) + (insert number of joules of energy, if any).

I'd also like to know what temperatures this hypothetical reaction is spontaneous.

 

At 2/02/2006 2:04 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

BD;
If you want me to answer your questions, answer mine.

 

At 2/02/2006 2:16 PM, Blogger Golf Sucks said...

It's irrelevant, Johnny. The Dog knows his questions are effectively rhetorical, because you are incapable of answering them.

 

At 2/02/2006 2:34 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

If you want me to answer your questions, answer mine.

Why should I? Your question is irrelevant because it changes the subject.

But because I feel like popping your brain, I'll go ahead: No. I'm not a doctor, and I don't own any stock whatsoever.

Cue the irrelevant and already-answered questions on why I chose to not answer.

 

At 2/02/2006 2:57 PM, Blogger notmercury said...

Another 2 part question fore sam.

a) Is methylmercury more toxic than inorganic mercury?

b) How do you convert inorganic mercury to methylmercury?

answers below



cixot erom hcum si yrucremlyhtem(a

nimalaboclyhtem(b

 

At 2/02/2006 7:45 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

You know, looking back this is kind of funny. Here I am, asking questions about mercury, thimerosal, test protocols, flaws in test protocols, how science "knows" things, why I should accept a datum with lots of spaces left intentionally blank for no reason, and Fore Sam wouldn't answer questions because he can't talk about anything except my annual income and investment portfolio.

The only time he's on topic is when he's screaming for me to ignore all those intentionally blank spaces because the evil Big Pharma's going to get us, and that chelators should receive a free pass because of that. Even though they could be just as evil, and just as guilty of holding back autism research, especially since their method is random firing in the dark.

 

At 2/03/2006 2:09 AM, Blogger Kev said...

"We know that Kev's way of dealing with difficult questions is to put his tail between his legs and delete the post."

Posting as anon rather than Fore Sam doesn't constitute 'we' John. Its still just you.

Its quite easy to check if I've deleted any posts - count the unique id numbers. If I have there'll be gaps. But don't let that stop you from posting irrelevancies John. I understand that you're caught in a trap here and need to try and distract attention away from yourself.

 

At 2/03/2006 9:25 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

I understand that you're [Fore Sam] caught in a trap here and need to try and distract attention away from yourself.

Well, not so much as a trap as a series of arguments that conveniently ended up putting themselves together into a giant Goldberg device that Sam/John walked right into.

The effect is the same, though.

 

At 2/03/2006 1:16 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Bronze Dog and Kevin;
How can one be entrapped by those who have to hide instead of facing up to tough questions? I'm simply not going to bother with Mr Dog until he answers my question.

 

At 2/03/2006 1:22 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Reneging on your deal, huh? I did answer your question: I'm not a doctor, and I don't have any stock in pharmaceuticals. I have no ties to the medical industry whatsoever.

Stop hiding from your responsibilities. I have questions about autism that you refuse to answer. I'm not going to perform rash actions based on your word. Show me some reason to believe you're telling the truth, and not deluding yourself.

 

At 2/03/2006 2:13 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

How can one be entrapped by those who have to hide instead of facing up to tough questions?

How can one who hides from easy questions not entrap himself?

 

At 2/03/2006 2:21 PM, Anonymous Kassiane said...

He still would rather tap dance than answer questions about his employment.

I'll tap dance AND do backflips if the propaganda and insults stop, and Fore Sam answers the questions posed to him.

He claims to be an "expert", so get expertin'. Part of having experience outside the norm and being out about it is that people ask you questions. And they expect to be answered without having to hand over their proof of employment first. That's just stalling when people shoot holes in a theory.

 

At 2/03/2006 2:30 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

One wonders if he'll give me real proof of ghosts if I give him my social security, credit card, and personal identification numbers.

 

At 2/03/2006 3:10 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Fore Sam: How about you go ahead and post the answers, just to convince the lurkers that you have them. Your brickwalling our requests for information about this mercury-autism link. Your refusal to provide information about chelation and autism must look awfully suspicious to them.

 

At 2/03/2006 5:45 PM, Anonymous Fore Sam said...

Bronze Dog; I'm not a transvestite hooker and I don't herd penguins in Antartica. I have no investments in soybeans either. Would that help you figure out what I do for employment?
Sorry, no answers from me until I get one from you.

 

At 2/04/2006 1:01 AM, Anonymous HCN said...

The real reason John Best posting as Fore Sam will not answer Bronze Dog's questions is because he does not know the answers.

He whiffled and waffled at the sources of the "fact" China having no autism until 1999, and then finally produced some reference to a Yahoo group message. When confronted with actual Chinese papers showing that information was false he first posted a response that seemed like a very stupid joke... AND then went and posted the misinformation AGAIN here!

Here is my information: Until the birth of my son I was a structural engineer (specializing in vibration analysis, I had fun solving nonlinear 2nd order differential equations). Due to his neonatal seizures, and other ongoing health issues I have not returned to work (there was a period where I took him and his brother to a total of 5 speech therapy sessions a week, which just happened to coincide to the chicken pox epidemic in our house, and school -- one kid in the school DID get hospitalized with resulting flesh-eating bacteria. Fun times). The income of our house is through a software engineer for a manufacturer of transportation systems. Our investments are mostly mutual funds, with heavy emphasis in "high tech". You can see my history of postings by looking for "HCN" in Usenet (use Google Groups).

Now that I have given you this information... I'd like you to answer these questions:

1) (first asked by Bronze Dog) The elements bonded to the mercury atom/ion in thimerasol molecules are, like most chemical bonds, probably much more energy efficient than mercury by itself in liquid metalic form or in aqueous ionic form. It probably takes a lot of energy to break that bond. Didn't you study this in sixth grade public school?

If you'd like to show me otherwise, please show me a chemical reaction that separates mercury atoms from thimerasol molecules. And if you please, calculate the energy needed.

2) In the studies of children who have been chelated for lead (the most common form of heavy metal poisoning) there has been no full recovery from neurological damage. The sources for this information can be found here:
Effect of Chelation Therapy on the Neuropsychological and Behavioral Development of Lead-Exposed Children After School Entry ... with this comment: "Chelation therapy with succimer lowered average blood lead levels for 6 months but resulted in no benefit in cognitive, behavioral, and neuromotor endpoints."

and
Do Children With Falling Blood Lead Levels Have Improved Cognition? ... with this comment: "By 6 months after randomization, blood lead levels had fallen by similar amounts in both chelated and placebo children, despite the immediate drops in the chelated group; there was no association between change in blood lead level and change in cognitive test score."

PLUS with the often cited article,
Pink ladies: mercury poisoning in twin girls ... with this comment "Over the 8 weeks in hospital they showed some minor neurocognitive improvements, but their long-term prognosis is uncertain."

So with this evidence... why do you think chelating for real heavy metal poisoning will improve neurological damage? Please include all references (NOT messages in a Yahoo group! A paper that is accessible through a library is sufficient).

3) Along with the "Pink Ladies" paper, there are these case studies:
Mercury Intoxication and Arterial Hypertension: Report of Two Patients and Review of the Literature ...

So do your autistic kids with "mercury poisoning" have the symptoms described here and "Pink Ladies" case studies? Just show one real cite that autistic kids can typically have hypertension.

------
This is not a question, just a request that you read this paper:
Subcutaneous Injection of Mercury: “Warding Off Evil”


Just give us your honest reaction to the article.

 

At 2/04/2006 1:19 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Oh, pardon me, Fore Sam, I didn't realize "Are you a doctor?", part of the original question, had changed under my nose, especially since you didn't go through the trouble of asking me for more precision.

My job title is "Drafting technician" at the moment.

NOW will you answer my questions, or are you going to engage in more stalling tactics for your own amusement, like asking who I'm a drafting technician for?

 

At 2/04/2006 3:42 AM, Blogger Kev said...

"How can one be entrapped by those who have to hide instead of facing up to tough questions?"

You've asked no tough questions John. You just keep repeating statements of your belief system. In turn, you are quite obviously unable to answer any questions posed to you without resorting to inanity.

 

At 2/04/2006 8:00 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Just had a comparison occur to me in a dream.

Sylivia Browne skips out of the Randi Challenge by questioning the existence of the money, Randi's objectivity, Randi's motives, etc, etc, etc.

Of course, Randi is irrelevant to Sylvia's claims: She should have conducted tests on herself, no matter what motives Randi has: All her questions are just ways to avoid answering the question, "Is she psychic?"

Fore Sam should be answering questions about his claim. Instead of performing his civic duty of freely sharing the evidence and science behind his claim, he's asking about my motives, my money, etc.

 

At 2/04/2006 8:52 AM, Blogger Phil Schwarz said...

Nothing in this debate yet about the scam that the labs in collusion with the chelationists are perpetrating. They are in the same category as the dishonest mechanics who dip your automobile parts into their waste oil bucket and then hit you up for expensive "repairs" of purported leaks.

And of course these are the labs that all the gullible chelating parents turn to, because they are supposedly the only ones capable of identifying the "poisoning" -- any lab returning a negative result is ipso facto in collusion with Big Pharma, the CDC, and the AMA, and as such isn't trusted by them.

It's all such a hermeneutically sealed system.

 

At 2/04/2006 9:30 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Just like how I'm opposed to his non-logic, I'm ipso facto part of the conspiracy. And since conspiracies are supposed to be super-secret, an accusation is enough to "convict" someone of being in on it.

I have a feeling I should have stuck with the Giles Corey defense. Oh well. I'm completely innocent of the "motivation" charges he's hinting at. But I doubt he'll let a little thing like the truth stop him.

 

At 2/04/2006 11:41 AM, Blogger Fore Sam said...

Phil Schwarz;
Are those of us who chelate and don't bother with the labs gullible?
I have liver tests done once in a while by a mainstream pediatrician. I think he uses Quest lab. Is that OK?
I just rely on the slow, steady improvement I see to affirm the fact that mercury is coming out causing my son to get better. This is much the same as using Advil to reduce a fever. You don't really need to check the kids temperature to see that he's feeling better. When they get out of bed and start jumping around, it's a pretty good indication that the fever has been reduced. Maybe you have a better method of testing for mercury to help those parents who want data. Knocking the treatment doesn't help solve the problem so what do you suggest parents of autistic kids do to help them?

 

At 2/04/2006 11:47 AM, Blogger Fore Sam said...

Some of you asked for links to see evidence about mercury. Please visit www.oracknows.com for answers.

 

At 2/04/2006 12:16 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

I just rely on the slow, steady improvement I see to affirm the fact that mercury is coming out causing my son to get better.

And, as we all know, by divine revelation, Fore Sam couldn't possibly be mistaking the cause of that improvement, thus he doesn't need any sort of countermeasures to prevent mistakes like placebo controls and blinding.

Please visit www.oracknows.com for answers.

Funny, I didn't know Orac kept primary sources. Can you get a little more specific, just so that I spend less time surfing?

Oh, and how does the mercury get out of the thimerosal molecule?

 

At 2/04/2006 4:22 PM, Anonymous HCN said...

As I said, John Best posting as Fore Sam will not answer the questions because he can NOT! His brain cannot accept information contrary to his preconceived notions of reality, no matter how far they are from the way the world really works.

Perhaps his next nickname should be "Brave Sir Robin".

Phil Shwartz, the discussion of the sometimes "convenient" relationship between the mail-order testing labs and the chelation providers has been discussed before. Unfortunately I cannot pin down which blog discussion that this has occured. I do remember reading the dubious opinion that the Mercury Mafia thinks that hair analysis is more valid than blood testing for mercury, yet the IV-EDTA is used to chelate mercury from BLOOD! But I do know that there are a couple of Quackwatch pages that are several years old that discuss that very same phenomena:
Commercial Hair Analysis:
A Cardinal Sign of Quackery

Dubious Mercury Testing

 

At 2/05/2006 12:00 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Considering his knowledge of chemistry, I wonder if he thinks a can of Campbell's soup will function as an incendiary device. It's got a lot of sodium in it, and metalic sodium reacts explosively with water... Think I may want to put my laptop in a watertight container. It's got a lithium ion battery, and lithium reacts even more strongly with water.

He might want to dig the soot out of his fireplace if he's got one, too, since it probably works out that soot = carbon = diamonds in his world.

 

At 2/05/2006 12:19 AM, Blogger Kev said...

On the role played by the labs in this circus of quackery, one of my favourites is the story of how Stephanie Cave, darling of Generation Rescue and William Shaw of Great Plains Laboratory think plastic cups cause autism.

As Autism Diva and Jim Laidler constantly reiterate - decent lab testing can be bought for about $30US from a mainstream Doctors office.

 

At 2/05/2006 11:42 AM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

Speaking of small lab fees, I'd like to present a little thing I said recently:

"You know, all of this could have been avoided if chelators spent a little of their money on simple, proper double-blind control studies."

Be sure to click the link. That's how things look to me when people claim proper tests are too expensive.

 

At 2/05/2006 12:30 PM, Anonymous Kassiane said...

;Liver testing won't catch it if his kidneys go to hell.

Thought you knew all about chelation. If that were the case, you'd know that the "detoxification process" is exceptionally hard on the kidneys. Like, drink 1oz/kg H20 daily and you STILL might get kidney damage sufficient to shut one down.

Gosh, Fore Sam, you TRYING to kill your kid? The Nadama family succeeded in getting rid of their autistic child, is that what you want too?


in other news, HI PHIL!

 

At 2/05/2006 3:04 PM, Blogger Bronze Dog said...

I noticed that GR doesn't have a search function. Directing us there is kind of like directing non-Bigfoot believers to the Pacific Northwest. It's not kind for the prosecution to force the defense into looking for evidence of a crime.

I noticed that they're referencing that dishonest journalist, Kennedy, who strategically quoted Simpsonwood out of context to make its conclusions look almost the exact opposite of what they actually were.

I noticed from my brief foray into their "evidence" section that it didn't link to any primary sources.

I noticed that it's been over 24 hours since I got specific in my answer to Fore Sam.

 

At 2/28/2006 8:48 PM, Anonymous Sarah N. said...

Hi Orac,

Love your stuff. Please take a look at this one when you get a chance. It looks sketchy to me, but I don't have the scientific background.

http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/news/geier.pdf

It came out this week in the supposedly peer reviewed "Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons". It supposedly shows a decline in neurodevelopmental disorders since removal of thimerosal.

Would you send this to Autism Diva as well? I don't see a way to give feedback on her blog.

Thanks!

Signed,
A Fan

 

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