A sad day

Pope John Paul II has died. I was afraid his recent bout with the flu several weeks ago that necessitated a tracheostomy was the start of a downward spiral, and, unfortunately, it was. As a Polish-American and a Catholic, I always admired him, although his rigid conservatism when it came to doctrine were frustrating. He will be a very hard act to follow.


  1. For a man surely going to heaven, they were desperate to prevent it as long as possible.

  2. AHHHH, but the fundies think he'll head the other direction, such is religion.

    Myself I think he was a good man, not inspired in many ways but a good man who admitted the churches errors, well, some of them.

    Rest in Peace.

    Orac I thought you have routinely said you were an agnostic?

  3. how many cases of AIDS did he not prevent? how many wise women were denied access to church leadership? how many homosexuals did he excommunicate? how many perverted priests were shielded by his church?

    he admitted mistakes, but beatified nazi sympathisers. he helped poland get out of russian dominance, but helped give bush legitimacy. he didn't rail enough against capital punishment and went balistic about abortions.

    he will go down in history similarly to r reagan. his obstinance will be forgotton and airports will carry his name. if there's an afterlife, he's got a lot of explaining to do. for starters, why did he eliminate activist priests in south america?

  4. Ah, yes, I wondered how long it would take for these sorts of nasty posts to appear.

    Perhaps you could answer me one of your own questions: How many homosexuals did he excommunicate? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the answer is zero, as I've never heard of any and homosexuality is not one of the things that can result in automatic excommunication.

    And how on earth can you say he gave Bush legitimacy? He didn't rail enough against capital punishment? Have you actually read his writings? Listened to his speeches? How much criticism of capital punishment is enough for you. John Paul made the Church's position very clear on this issue. He also criticized the Iraq War at every turn as unjust. Say what you will about John Paul II, but he was consistent. Unlike fundies in this country, when he said he was pro-life, he meant it, opposing not just abortion, but war and the death penalty, as well, which is why a lot of conservatives were quite upset with him about the war.

    Finally, so what if he got rid of activist priests? He didn't believe that priests should get too deeply involved in politics. Given the way things are turning out with the fundies in this country getting so heavily involved in politics, I'd say that John Paul's position was not unreasonable in that matter. It may even have been wise.

  5. orac, the catholic church is the most organized, top down, institution in the world. if its leader, unencumbered by a board of directors, wanted american bishops to make capital punishment a big deal, it would have been done.

    homosexuals were excommunicated in fact , if not deed. was bush given a very public meeting after iraq? your dismissal of eliminating activist priests is strange. it's part of the description of pastoral work---and was/is very much needed. i believe the result of this call to inaction has resulted in the growth of local pentacosts, some of whom, are now the local neocon fundies.

    when a person has absolute power, the results are more indicative of his reign than are his words. the church rails against abortions, petitions quietly against capital punishment. the same church hides and protects perverted priests. and wasn't cardinal law bumped up after his boston debacle. as a matter of fact, he gave one of the funeral masses.

    as most people, the pope was both good and bad, but, he must be judged by a "higher" standard. his legacy includes a free poland and many free pediphiles. many attempts to eliminate bigotry, few successes. remember, we're talking about a man who many believe talks with , and for, the divinity. to paraphrase benston, he was no john xxiii.


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